D&D General Can we talk about best practices?

Fanaelialae

Legend
I've read your discussion with @Ovinomancer about Inspiration and on that I agree with Ovinomancer. The most I can see in that subsystem is that players have a modest incentive, mediated via the GM, to flavour their action declarations by reference to their PC descriptors. That might reduce the amount of (what The Forge has called) "pawn stance" play - ie action declarations that are nakedly motivated by the player's evaluation of the situation, without any attempt to establish an in-character rationale - but I don't see it going much further than that.

As for the rest of the system for non-combat resolution, it seems to me to be relatively weak as far as player control over the shared fiction is concerned. There are spells, as has been discussed, but not much else. A player can say what his/her PC tries to do, and that's about it: there is no framework for establishing binding stakes and consequences, for instance.


The idea of RPGing-as-storytelling-by-the-GM has a long history, going back at least to the early 1980s (the DL modules are an early published example in D&D; CoC exists around the same time and is perhaps an even clearer example of the same sort of approach). 5e's non-combat mechanics are quite well-suited to that, because (as I said just above) they don't generate significant constraints on the shared fiction.

And the players have no other way to introduce significant constraints on the shared fiction.

Which means that the GM is largely free to introduce whatever s/he wants to into the shared fiction, ie is largely free to tell a pre-planned story.

So best practice advice for playing 5e would probably begin from a recognition of these points, and then advising GMs where to go from there.

I saw this evidenced recently, when my daughter played her first D&D game with friends over the school holidays. The GM clearly didn't have a pre-planned story ready to go, and the result was aimless, structureless and ultimately (for my daughter, at least) disappointing play. And her experience drove home (to me, if not to her - she doesn't think as much as I do about RPG design) the lack of levers that 5e D&D players have to drive things forward or actually make the fiction develop. All they can do is wait for the GM to tell them things.
Yeah, I'm sure that every DM running 5e as a player driven sandbox is simply deluding themselves. In point of fact we're all just running DM-dictated railroads. All the poor players can do is wait for us to tell them things. (That's sarcasm.)

Not having explicit control of the fiction does not equate to having to wait for the DM to tell you things. There's a reason that advice like Yes And and Yes But exist. If the players ask me whether there's a blacksmith in town, then I'm inclined to say yes (unless I have an established reason to say no) but maybe he's been spending his days drunk in the tavern because bandits killed his daughter. Or there's a blacksmith in town and he's actually someone that PC knew while growing up (and I can let the player fill in those details).

There's a reason player driven play styles exist. Did your daughter have the players come up with a goal that their characters were trying to accomplish? That's fairly important for player driven games (more experienced players don't necessarily need to be coaxed to do this, as they will typically do so on their own, but for newbies it's pretty much a must).

If what you're getting at is that WotC ought to publish some kind of play style guide, I could see that. Although there is a veritable wealth of information on the internet, admittedly, separating the wheat from the chaff can be challenging, especially for those unfamiliar with the topic.
 

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RFB Dan

Podcast host, 6-edition DM, and guy with a pulse.
If this was more of a "Best Practices at MY Table" this would be easy:
1. DO NOT TOUCH MY PAINTED MINIS IF YOU'VE BEEN EATING.
2. See Rule #1.
3. NO Metagaming.
4. No real world conversations that would start real world arguments.
5. See Rule #2.
6. Do not give advice on how to play to another player UNLESS THEY ASK FIRST.

And of course, helpful hints:
1. Organize your books so they're easy to find.
2. Whenever Reaper announces a new Bones Kickstarter, jump in on that; I have a pirate ship now.
3. Don't throw your dice at the players that are bothering you; you may lose them, especially if you're playing in the basement near the sump pump.
4. If you live in a flood zone, don't keep your gaming stuff in the basement.
5. Avoid gaming on Sundays in the fall, especially if you live in Wisconsin. #gopackgo
 

pemerton

Legend
Not having explicit control of the fiction does not equate to having to wait for the DM to tell you things. There's a reason that advice like Yes And and Yes But exist. If the players ask me whether there's a blacksmith in town, then I'm inclined to say yes (unless I have an established reason to say no) but maybe he's been spending his days drunk in the tavern because bandits killed his daughter. Or there's a blacksmith in town and he's actually someone that PC knew while growing up (and I can let the player fill in those details).

There's a reason player driven play styles exist. Did your daughter have the players come up with a goal that their characters were trying to accomplish? That's fairly important for player driven games (more experienced players don't necessarily need to be coaxed to do this, as they will typically do so on their own, but for newbies it's pretty much a must).

If what you're getting at is that WotC ought to publish some kind of play style guide, I could see that. Although there is a veritable wealth of information on the internet, admittedly, separating the wheat from the chaff can be challenging, especially for those unfamiliar with the topic.
Suppose I turn up to your 5e D&D game, and my PC has been on his errantry for the past 5 years, but now hopes to meet up with his brother to find out what has happened to his family's ancestral estate. How would I go about doing that?

5e D&D has no canonical procedure for resolving this, other than the player asking the GM.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Let me start this post by saying I'm going to be blunt about differences, but that I'm not making value judgements. In fact, I rather enjoy 5e, and I enjoy a good sandbox/hexcrawl in 5e (good doing a lot of work), but I'm expecting when I do this that I'm largely going to be consuming the GM's ideas. This is fine -- clearly I find it entertaining enough to spend a large chunk of my gaming time doing this as GM or player. That said, I also enjoy other approaches and games, ones that are very different from 5e. This has given me a perspective on the differences in play between playstyles, and I largely find that people that haven't engaged outside the D&D-alike spheres to have unwarranted views on just what's happening in GM-centered games (by which I mean the GM has the majority of authorities over the rules and fiction of the game).
Yeah, I'm sure that every DM running 5e as a player driven sandbox is simply deluding themselves. In point of fact we're all just running DM-dictated railroads. All the poor players can do is wait for us to tell them things. (That's sarcasm.)
That's it's player driven, yes, usually they are. What happens usually is that players get to chose which parts of the GM's prep they experience with more freedom than in a linear game, where the GM chooses which parts of their prep you get to experience. The difference between a prepped sandbox and an actual player driven game is that the latter lets the players set all parts of the agenda of play -- they get to choose what play is about and the game is then about that. This isn't true in a sandbox, where what you want only happens if it's a part of the GM's sandbox vision.

This gets made very clear if you branch out into some other games that actually do player-driven play and not the watered down expanded menu version that is the typical D&D sandbox*.

*caveated with typical, because there are some atypical ones out there.
Not having explicit control of the fiction does not equate to having to wait for the DM to tell you things. There's a reason that advice like Yes And and Yes But exist. If the players ask me whether there's a blacksmith in town, then I'm inclined to say yes (unless I have an established reason to say no) but maybe he's been spending his days drunk in the tavern because bandits killed his daughter. Or there's a blacksmith in town and he's actually someone that PC knew while growing up (and I can let the player fill in those details).
It kinda does, though. This isn't a bad thing, but a required thing. The GM is the sole source of the setting material and the fiction outside the characters. If I, as a player, want to know something about the situation or the setting, the GM has to tell me. I then get to take actions with this information (which is often incomplete as the GM is keeping secrets) to find out more information. For example, if my character enters a dungeon room, I have to wait for the GM to describe it's features. I can then take actions to discover more, like maybe what's in the chest the GM just described to me. This prompts the GM to tell me more, and the cycle continues. There's nothing wrong or bad with this-- it's a very entertaining and obviously popular way to play.

But, there are games where the player establishes things about the fiction, and then those things are tested by the mechanics to find out what happens. In this case, the opening may be the same -- the GM describes the scene, which could be a dungeon room like above, and may include a detail about a chest because it's interesting set dressing. The GM, in this case, has no plans for the chest -- she doesn't know what's in it any more than the player does. The player established that they're going to search the chest for something they want, say a treasure, that is important to the character. This gets tested by the mechanics (or the GM just agrees), and, on a successful test, that's what's in the chest! On a failure, the GM complicates the character's life, usually by denying the intent of the task and introducing a complication -- the treasure isn't in the chest, instead there's note from the PC's rival taunting them that they've already recovered it! Back to square one for the PC.

This is an incomplete example of play that focuses specifically on how D&D is largely getting the GM to tell you things and how that can look differently in a different system. Preferences can vary on which you may like, but the distinction remains.
There's a reason player driven play styles exist. Did your daughter have the players come up with a goal that their characters were trying to accomplish? That's fairly important for player driven games (more experienced players don't necessarily need to be coaxed to do this, as they will typically do so on their own, but for newbies it's pretty much a must).

If what you're getting at is that WotC ought to publish some kind of play style guide, I could see that. Although there is a veritable wealth of information on the internet, admittedly, separating the wheat from the chaff can be challenging, especially for those unfamiliar with the topic.
Again, there's really not much "player-driven" play in 5e. Can't be. All of the authority over the fiction is vested in the GM. They may indulge players, absolutely, but they have veto, and that's absolute control over the thing. So, a "player-driven" version of 5e is still entirely at the discretion of the GM -- the players have no way to enforce anything or bind the GM in any way. Other systems do do this. So, when you say "player driven" with 5e, that means that the GM is indulging the players, usually by offering a broad menu of things to choose from. This isn't actually player-driven, though, it's just a more expansive choice set.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Suppose I turn up to your 5e D&D game, and my PC has been on his errantry for the past 5 years, but now hopes to meet up with his brother to find out what has happened to his family's ancestral estate. How would I go about doing that?

5e D&D has no canonical procedure for resolving this, other than the player asking the GM.
"Hey DM, I've been on my errantry the past 5 years but I'm back now. I'm going to look for my brother to find out what happened to my family's ancestral estate."

Depending on the group dynamic, you might of course want to get the group's consent first, if this has the potential to be a lengthy investigation.

You could even throw in, "The last I'd heard, my brother was running a profitable shipping business down by the docks in this city and he'd started doing business with some criminal types, which is what lead me to part ways on bad terms with him. I've also been sending money this whole time to a tavern girl he knocked up but never acknowledged, so she might know his whereabouts, provided she's still here."
 

loverdrive

Prophet of the profane (She/Her)
I get what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that if people are using it for that purpose and are satisfied with the experience then yes, it is fair to say that it can handle [Y].

No one is claiming that [X] is the best for [Y], or that [X] does [Y] better than [bespoke system designed to do Y]. The claim is simply that it can handle it.
But if [X] it didn't contribute to [Y] at all, can it really be said that they used [X]?

Yeah, a hammer is a sufficient tool for building a house of cards... I didn't really touch the hammer, but still, it didn't get in the way!
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
But if [X] it didn't contribute to [Y] at all, can it really be said that they used [X]?

Yeah, a hammer is a sufficient tool for building a house of cards... I didn't really touch the hammer, but still, it didn't get in the way!
I disagree that it didn't contribute at all. It might not have contributed much, but it contributed something.

I find the assertion that 5e has the same narrative support as Monopoly to be utterly absurd. If you want to argue that Fate has a wealth more narrative support than 5e, I totally agree. But that 5e has exactly zero narrative support is something I strongly disagree with.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
But that 5e has exactly zero narrative support is something I strongly disagree with.

Getting hung up on the detail of "exactly zero" is probably not constructive. That's a road to the ego conflict of "I was technically correct, and you were not" which doesn't help anyone actually learn anything.

Consider what happens if you change "exactly zero" with "negligible" or "too little to actually serve the purpose" or similar.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Getting hung up on the detail of "exactly zero" is probably not constructive. That's a road to the ego conflict of "I was technically correct, and you were not" which doesn't help anyone actually learn anything.

Consider what happens if you change "exactly zero" with "negligible" or "too little to actually serve the purpose" or similar.
I still don't agree with negligible. Simply by being an RPG, 5e benefits from the narrative tools that all RPGs share, and those are hardly negligible (at least IMO). If someone wants to contend that what 5e contributes on top of that baseline is negligible, I'd say that's arguably fair.

However, I don't think that it would be fair to say that therefore 5e can't handle that playstyle. At most, I think it might be fair to say that 5e doesn't distinguish itself from other RPGs with respect to that play style, which I find to be a very meaningful difference. In the former, it can't really do the thing (at least no better than Monopoly can). In the latter, it can, but not meaningfully better than any other RPG (which is nonetheless leagues ahead of Monopoly).
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
Ok, I am not familiar with narrative game mechanics, (My players are not interested) but my understanding is, that in narrative games: There is a formal process where a player (not the DM) can propose a narrative and the DM, perhaps others) can accept or contest that narrative and if they contest the narrative then mechanical resolution decides whether the proposed narrative is accepted entirely or with modification in to the fiction of the game.
Am I right? and would, in discussing narrative in the context of D&D 5e, be better to address, whether could mechanics can be added to D&D with out re-writing the entire game?
 
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