Can words have power without gods?

[Dethklok]

An old game world I used to like was atheistic in nature. There were Christian friars who could perform subtle miracles, but these only worked on the basis of reputation, superstition, and faith. The powers of wizards, alchemists, and mystics were genuine in the sense of working without the need for belief. But as the years passed, I gradually found myself more and more troubled by the powers wielded by wizards in this godless game-world, because these were based intrinsically on language.

Alchemy was plausible in pseudo-scientific terms, and the mystics drew upon what could be described as an inner psychic well. But wizards worked magic by studying weighty tomes, writing runes, or waving their hands and speaking arcane syllables after the classical fashion. And this seems to imply that there is something intrinsic to the words or gestures that gave them power.

The problem is that language is a human creation. In a godless universe, where words, symbols, and gestures have no intrinsic meaning, wizardry isn't plausible. Of course, magic in cultures of the real world generally has relied on rituals and incantations. But traditional wizards of the real world didn't live in a godless universe. Their rituals and incantations were always directed at something that would hear them. In other words, the ancient wizards were also priests.

In a prescientific universe filled with gods, it is easy to see how language and ritual would be intertwined with thaumaturgy. Wonder-workers would call on deities to bring rain, or demons to curse their enemies, or the dead to learn their secrets. Even a strictly monotheistic universe, where so-called "superstition" is disregarded and there are no entities besides God to call upon, gives rise to the possibility of the words themselves having intrinsic power imbued in them by the Almighty: "in the beginning there was the Word."

And a corollary of this is that, long ago, clerics were also much like wizards. The ancient priests often recorded a great deal of mathematical, astronomical, and even alchemical and scientific information. And you can see how this merging of theology with magic worked in film when considering Maleficent's invocation of "the powers of hell" in Sleeping Beauty, or in television with Simon the Sorcerer's calling on Hermes and "the lords of darkness" in Robin of Sherwood (specifically at 35:45 in this episode).

But what if we require that the incantations of wizards derive power without relying on a God or gods? How can words or symbols have any magic in them without supernatural powers? Can classical wizards - dusty books, magic circles, spells and all - exist independently of clerics? And if so, then how would their magic work?

 

[delericho]

But what if we require that the incantations of wizards derive power without relying on a God or gods? How can words or symbols have any magic in them without supernatural powers?

Then 'magic' in just science by another name. But, to quote Clarke, "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

So...

Can classical wizards - dusty books, magic circles, spells and all - exist independently of clerics? And if so, then how would their magic work?

If you assume that in the distant past the Lost Empire of Atlantis wielded great and mighty technology, it's not entirely beyond the realm of supposition that they seeded the atmosphere with lots of nanotech devices. Devices that the wizard, through the study of ancient and esoteric programming manuals, can reprogram on the fly for whatever purposes he wishes.

Or something like that.

(Note: under that model, the spell list would consist of those programs that are 'known'. So, the Wizard can either learn his specific spells from the list of known spells, or he can painstakingly research new applications for the nanotech devices. The reason he can't just command the devices to perform any and all miracles on the fly is the exact same reason I can't use my computer to do the same - programming, and in particular getting it right, is hard.)

 

[Yora]

A word can be thought off as two things: An acoustic symbol for a concept, or a series of sound waves of specific frequencies.

If you look at words as acoustic symbols for concepts, both the concepts and the symbol chosen to represent it are completely arbitrary. You would indeed require a kind of deity that in some way establishes a mechanism that senses the words being spoken and then causes some effect in reaction to it. Arbitrary symbols can not be part of laws of nature woven into the fabric of the universe.

You could go the route of sound waves triggering physical reactions in the magical background field of the universe. That would require some form of ether that interacts with matter on a subatomic scale, which doesn't exist in reality, but shouldn't be implausible in a hypothetical alternative universe from a physicists perspective. The main problem here would be the range of human vocalization. There's a virtually infinite range of combinations of sound frequencies, but the human body can only create a tiny fraction of them. That all the cool effects can be created by human voice, but not by animals or physical actions in the environment would be a huge coincidence. However, it's more plausible that humans have actually evolved to be able to create the sounds that lie just in the "magical" frequency range.
I think Skyrim is going kinda in this direction, with dragons somehow being uniquely suited to create the words correctly. Humans can learn to do it, but it requires huge amounts of training.

Throughout history, most concepts of incantations require a divine agency, though. Not neccessarly a god as understood by the modern English word, but some supernatural enteties that are able to understand the intention of the person invoking the incatation and then react by doing magic on their behalf. Either by choice out of kindness, or by a compulsion created by even higher powers. The idea that the spirits have to comply with these orders is quite common though. Which is one commonly used distinction made in religious studies to differentiate between a wizard and a priest. A priest is performing a prayer to a divine entity to make a request for divine intervention. The wizard performs a ritual that compells a spirit to do as it is ordered. If the ritual is performed correctly, the spirits don't have any choice to disobey; if the spell fails, the ritual was performed incorrectly. (As always in social studies and anthropology, this is a generalization that aknowledges individual cases being different, and is only one of many possible interpretations not always shared by everyone.)

 

[evilbob]

Response to thread title: of course. Why wouldn't they?

Response to your OP: I always liked the idea I've seen in several bits of media (I think Arcanum did it very well) that people's power came from their belief. There doesn't even have to be gods or planes or anything in your game world; if a priest of Bob believes strongly enough in Bob, then he has power - power he assumes is given to him by Bob, but in truth, it's more like he is exerting his will against the universe. Another priest of Sally has just as much power, but that's because her belief in Sally is so strong - not that Sally exists. Similarly, people who believe that there are no gods have just as much power; it simply comes from other sources. Science, mystical understanding of the leylines of the universe, force of will - whatever.

In that sort of world, "conviction" is really the source of power. It's particularly interesting because then it invites the question: what happens when your belief falters? Does your power go away? Even more perplexing: what if it doesn't? Good times, good times.

 

[Morrus]

I don't think anybody will ever come up with a completely logically satisfying description of the nature of magic simply because it is magic. Science, sure; but magic is usually defined as supernatural. If one assumed the universe is steeped in a magical essence/force/whatever, or other planes exist filled with bizarre and wonderful energies, then words and gestures as formulas which unlock that energy isn't much of a stretch.

 

[Umbran]

An old game world I used to like was atheistic in nature. There were Christian friars who could perform subtle miracles, but these only worked on the basis of reputation, superstition, and faith. The powers of wizards, alchemists, and mystics were genuine in the sense of working without the need for belief. But as the years passed, I gradually found myself more and more troubled by the powers wielded by wizards in this godless game-world, because these were based intrinsically on language.

Alchemy was plausible in pseudo-scientific terms, and the mystics drew upon what could be described as an inner psychic well. But wizards worked magic by studying weighty tomes, writing runes, or waving their hands and speaking arcane syllables after the classical fashion. And this seems to imply that there is something intrinsic to the words or gestures that gave them power.

That's one way to think of it.

Clearly, in my current world, if I go through a prescribed process, with tools, I can turn a pile of lumber into a bookshelf. So, I have no problem with the waving of hands, or having physical props that influence how energy flows and changes the universe.

The inclusion of words is, however, a bit more problematic. You can, however, shift the blame - say magic requires focus of will. Words assist in achieving that focus. If you want a science-explanation, the brain has at least a part in reaching out to and channeling magical energies. As information, the words create patterns in the brain that then help shape magical energy in a given way.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I like the Dresden Files take on magic words, runes, and so on.

Magic itself, in that setting, doesn't rely on such things. You don't have to say magic words to cast spells. You don't have to draw out runes to create incantations. But, humans innately need those things. To channel magic, to withstand that power funneling through them, and stay focused enough to keep yourself and your mind safe wizards use words, runes, and implements. This is probably due to humanity's innate need to understand, its how we think. It's possible to cast a spell without saying anything or without having a staff or rod. But, man it hurts! And, its hard for a person to really control what they're doing without the steady rhythm of those words and gestures and physical objects.

So the words, the runes, the props... those are all human need. They aren't what makes magic possible. They're what humans use to conceptualize magic, so that they can use what is already out there.

 

[Fairman Rogers]

A couple of other literary examples to consider:

In the Eddings series The Belgariad/The Mallorean (and additional books), the system used is referred to as "The Will and the Word." It requires the magic user to both visualize an intention and then to give it voice. The word there is primarily for activation purposes, and without the will behind it it is meaningless. There are gods in this series, but they are also bound by this convention rather than being the ones who grant the power.

In Patrick Rothfuss's Kingkiller Chronicles, there is the sympathetic magic, which involves a more alchemical approach to connecting things to other things through material similarity, proximity, or other inherent traits. However, it also deals with understanding the true name of a thing. Names have power in this magic, and that includes knowing the true name of something like water, or wind, or fire. In general, the "true name" is not the common word that everyone uses for it. It is something else entirely.

This second example is also very like many modern as well as classical interpretations of fae. Naming something accurately gives you power over it, not because a god gave you that power, but because a true name implies knowledge and understanding of a thing's essence.

 

[Jhaelen]

Of course!

Their rituals and incantations were always directed at something that would hear them. In other words, the ancient wizards were also priests.

You enjoy talking in absolutes, it seems. Even if I'd grant you that incantations are always directed at 'something', that 'something' can be lots of things other than 'gods'. The most common example coming to my mind is ancestor-magic. Necromancy is another. And just think for a moment about mesmerism, astrology or alchemy. Both are pseudo-scientific traditions that are pretty close to what is commonly considered typical 'wizardly' magic.

If you are talking about 'words of power' specifically, think about hypnosis: it doesn't work without words and hypnotic induction techniques can be thought of as 'rituals and incantations', too.

 

[Dethklok]

If you assume that in the distant past the Lost Empire of Atlantis wielded great and mighty technology, it's not entirely beyond the realm of supposition that they seeded the atmosphere with lots of nanotech devices.

Not entirely, no. But in this case, the denizens of Atlantis are simply "gods."

You could go the route of sound waves triggering physical reactions in the magical background field of the universe.

One of my friends suggested this. But in that case wouldn't magic be more like songs or strange ululations which everyone had to match specifically and exactly with whatever vocal apparatus they possessed, rather than words per se? This is plausible, but it isn't the magic that most of us recognize, not least because it would be dependent on physical characteristics more than intelligence, willpower, or spirituality.

Throughout history, most concepts of incantations require a divine agency, though.

Of course; it can be really cool. (In fact, that's how we always use magic in our games.)

In that sort of world, "conviction" is really the source of power.

Then wouldn't people eventually figure out that there was no need for the ritual of magic and simply snap their fingers with conviction?

I don't think anybody will ever come up with a completely logically satisfying description of the nature of magic simply because it is magic.

I disagree. The nature of magic can still be arcane, but I see no plausible way that uttering words in Latin, Babylonian, or LaVey's Enochian would have power without some external intelligence hearing these words and interpreting them (or else some external intelligence changing the universe to recognize them).

The inclusion of words is, however, a bit more problematic. You can, however, shift the blame - say magic requires focus of will. Words assist in achieving that focus. If you want a science-explanation, the brain has at least a part in reaching out to and channeling magical energies. As information, the words create patterns in the brain that then help shape magical energy in a given way.

This was something else we considered. It does have an internal logic, but unfortunately it gives rise to poems, or personal phrases like "Flickum Bicus," not incantations like Omnes conspecti, omnes auditi, in nocte usque, ad saxum commutate, dum caelum ardeat!

I like the Dresden Files take on magic words, runes, and so on.

Very well! But "flickum Bicus" is still not a classic incantation.

In the Eddings series The Belgariad/The Mallorean (and additional books), the system used is referred to as "The Will and the Word." It requires the magic user to both visualize an intention and then to give it voice. The word there is primarily for activation purposes, and without the will behind it it is meaningless.

Then either one need not use specific words, or else, the immediate question is why some words have power and not others.

Names have power in this magic, and that includes knowing the true name of something like water, or wind, or fire. In general, the "true name" is not the common word that everyone uses for it. It is something else entirely.

In Veil of Darkness, the true name of Kairn is a secret written in a book of evil that you must unlock to defeat him. But the question is begged - who named Kairn? In a godless universe, there is no agency to imbue words with cosmic meaning.