Can WotC be forgiven?

[Psikosis]

I think not, certainly not any time soon.
...Which is a little strange considering WotC still hasn't actually come out and told everyone-- upfront and in their own voice-- what exactly they need to be forgiven for.

This is actually one my concerns about the situation. Had the immediately come out and said this was just a working draft, we're not going to do this, I think their statement would have been more credible. Now it feels very much like they are hoping it'll blow over and any statement is going to feel increasingly calculated and insincere.

 

[see]

Now that ORC has been announced, I feel like just making the OGL 1.0 irrevocable would be too little, too late. Adding the various SRDs to ORC would bring me back though.

Well, we don't have ORC yet; it's just a plan, not a license. It's going to be months before ORC is actually ironed out.

And even if WotC were to re-release their SRDs under ORC, that doesn't re-license all the 3PP released under the OGL over the last 23 years.

A thoroughly-solid OGL 1.0b (guarantees non-revocation, non-deauthorization, and non-withdrawal-of-offer) is, right now, still a better way forward.

 

[MGibster]

WotC maybe. Hasbro no. Having a megacrporation own your hobby is never a good idea.

And that's the problem in a nutshell, D&D shouldn't be "the hobby." No single game should be.

 

[MoonSong]

Well, we don't have ORC yet; it's just a plan, not a license. It's going to be months before ORC is actually ironed out.

And even if WotC were to re-release their SRDs under ORC, that doesn't re-license all the 3PP released under the OGL over the last 23 years.

A thoroughly-solid OGL 1.0b (guarantees non-revocation, non-deauthorization, and non-withdrawal-of-offer) is, right now, still a better way forward.

I'd still need them to handle control of the license to say the open gaming foundation so this doesn't happen again.

 

[billd91]

Yes and no. They’ve been forgiven for license shenanigans before by putting in work. But then they reverted back again. So they’re probably going to cyclically improve/disappoint depending on how their leadership changes.

 

[Seule]

And that's the problem in a nutshell, D&D shouldn't be "the hobby." No single game should be.

It isn't my hobby, my hobby includes other games. For some people however it is.

 

[Remathilis]

I hope so. D&D to me is more than just dice and mechanics any company can create. Its settings, characters, and lore. Its Sigil, Strahd, Baldur's Gate, Eberron, Spelljammers, Vecna, modrons and mindflayers. I would hate to have to give that up because WotC changes its alignment to Stupid Greedy.

 

[Princessmaker]

 

[MGibster]

I've given it some thought, and I still don't care about the OGL debacle. At least not directly. I understand why other people weren't happy about it, and I'm not going to tell you you shouldn't be unhappy about it. But what I'm more bothered by is the idea that WotC views us, their customers, as an obstacle between the company and their money. I haven't always liked the direction 5E has gone, but I've always felt that WotC genuinely wanted to provide us with a good product for a fair price. But now I'm an obstacle. I'm just a resource for them to mine any way they can. A lot of you have talked about the walled garden, but it's not a garden, it's a pen. At this point in time, I'm no longer interested in D&D products at all. I don't think I'll even pick up miniatures with the D&D logo on it.

 

[Clint_L]

Forgive them? They haven't really done anything, yet. Nor is there anything personal - "forgive" is a concept that I relate more to my relationships, not some big corporation. They've also previously gifted my school club small fortune in free resources, so I weigh that, as well. I don't like what appears to be their current strategy, and I also think it is being horribly mishandled, but that's their problem.

But honestly, we are not talking about monsters here. They haven't committed a crime or something. In fact, thus far they haven't actually done anything official.

 

[Charlaquin]

Well, we don't have ORC yet; it's just a plan, not a license. It's going to be months before ORC is actually ironed out.

Oh, of course. I didn’t mean they should (or could) announce any such intentions this early

And even if WotC were to re-release their SRDs under ORC, that doesn't re-license all the 3PP released under the OGL over the last 23 years.

For sure. I just think it would be a sign that they’re getting on the open RPG train (which, realistically I don’t see happening anyway so it’s all pie in the sky anyway)

A thoroughly-solid OGL 1.0b (guarantees non-revocation, non-deauthorization, and non-withdrawal-of-offer) is, right now, still a better way forward.

I mean, it’s what they’ll have to do in the immediate term if they want to salvage as much good will as they can. I just don’t know as it will be enough now.

 

[Shiroiken]

WotC is a company; they technically don't deserve praise or forgiveness. The management team running things are the ones who deserve credit/blame (in this case blame), and they seldom receive forgiveness. They've shown their motivation, short term gain over long term sustainability, and are unlikely to be forgiven. At least one high level executive is gonna have to fall on the sword for this, and even then it may not be enough (my group wants everyone in upper management fired).

Personally I don't care about the individuals involved. I want the situation corrected, with the company revealing they understand why they received this response. I'd really like them to add the understanding of the OGL being "non-revokable" by future management, although realistically this isn't necessary, as no future manager would try to repeat this disaster.

 

[mamba]

They haven't committed a crime or something. In fact, thus far they haven't actually done anything official.

It would have been official by now if not for the reception though...

 

[tetrasodium]

Maybe eventually but I imagine it won't be till some point after I've started looking for reasons to move past levelup & the new MCDM/black flag RPGs

 

[Malmuria]

Part of their "lifestyle brand" strategy has seemingly been to talk about dnd as a "community." To this end they've used influencers to introduce products and do actual plays at their dnd live events (or whatever they're called). We'll see how it shakes out, but I don't know that they can credibly say they "care about the community," even if it is the more sympathetic designer figures to say it. And they've seemingly upset all the influencers and youtubers as well. Further, even if they go back to OGL 1.0, anyone who wants to kickstart an OGL product is going to think twice, at least.

That said, a lot of people will continuing buying wotc products if they are quality products. But I wonder if management is underestimating the fact that the core product needs to be viable, and that it's not just anything with the dnd logo on it that will sell.

 

[THEMNGMNT]

If you bought a 5E product, then I presume you already forgave WotC for the 4E GSL. Why not do it again?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I've given it some thought, and I still don't care about the OGL debacle. At least not directly. I understand why other people weren't happy about it, and I'm not going to tell you you shouldn't be unhappy about it. But what I'm more bothered by is the idea that WotC views us, their customers, as an obstacle between the company and their money. I haven't always liked the direction 5E has gone, but I've always felt that WotC genuinely wanted to provide us with a good product for a fair price. But now I'm an obstacle. I'm just a resource for them to mine any way they can. A lot of you have talked about the walled garden, but it's not a garden, it's a pen. At this point in time, I'm no longer interested in D&D products at all. I don't think I'll even pick up miniatures with the D&D logo on it.

To be fair, this is almost certainly the decision making of like 5 people, at least two of whom used to work for microsoft.

Since the letter doesn't specify who they mean by "leadership", I'm not going to assume the worst and decide that Jeremy Crawford and Chris Perkins view me as an obstacle.

But...yeah, every publicly traded company, on some level, views you and I and everyone else as semi-inert bodies from which profit can be milked. It's baked into the economic model we all live under. The system values individuals and communities based directly, and exclusively, on what they can produce for the people at the top of the system.

We are not, excepting doing business with owner-operated small locals, the customer. We are either the product or the machine that makes the product.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If you bought a 5E product, then I presume you already forgave WotC for the 4E GSL. Why not do it again?

Different situation. The 4e OGL wasn't remotely unethical, to be frank. It was a bummer. The end.

Like, even with what people call the poison pill, it was just a bad license that you could just...not interact with. You could still make system neutral products for dnd, and OGL based products.

TBH if WoTC had come out immediately and said, "hey folks chill out you can still make OGL stuff under OGL 1.0a, you just can't use both licenses in the same product line" or even "you just can't use both. Once you agree to OGL 1.1, part of that agreement is agreeing not to use OGL 1.0a ever again.", I wouldn't even care about this whole debacle.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

If you bought a 5E product, then I presume you already forgave WotC for the 4E GSL. Why not do it again?

I think a lot less people were mad about the 4E GSL, because it wasn't stopping the OGL and thus a whole industry. Those who were mad, were very mad, but still.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

"Realizing 1.1 landed with a massive thud, suppose WotC announces that 1.1 is no longer a thing and 1.0a will remain for the indefinite future. They also say they are sorry. Really sorry. Really, really sorry. What would it take for them to be forgiven? Is there any going back at this point?

There are some that don't care. There are some that no matter what they do will be back for 1D&D, and there are some that no matter what they do will never pay WotC directly again.

For me, if they extended the time to wind down so the other companies could keep going for the next year retoool while putting stuff out and not layoff hundreds... I would be happier.