Can you Cleave after a Cup De' Grassey?

[FireLance]

The guy was HELD and "still standing."

The "blow of fat" (I like that misnomer of mine) dropped him way dead, and I allowed a PC to "cleave on" into another bad guy.

By the rules, I now see I was wrong, but I'd probably let it happen again.

Just because it made the player happy. I'm a sucker.

I would allow Cleave with CDG, *but* CDG is a full-round action that provokes an AOO, and you cannot take a 5-foot step between dropping your opponent and taking the extra attack. Hence, in order to take advantage of the Cleave, you probably have to make your CDG while you are threatened by another opponent, and you provoke an AOO from him (unless you have a reach weapon or the other opponent is unarmed, etc). If he hits, you have to make a Concentration check (DC 10+damage dealt) or fail to complete the CDG. You could attempt a CDG on the defensive in order to avoid an AOO, but you would have to succeed at a DC 15 Concentration check or lose the CDG. If, after all this, you manage to complete your CDG and drop your primary opponent, you can cleave the other one.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If he hits, you have to make a Concentration check (DC 10+damage dealt) or fail to complete the CDG. You could attempt a CDG on the defensive in order to avoid an AOO, but you would have to succeed at a DC 15 Concentration check or lose the CDG.

You know that's a house rule, right?

-Hyp.

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

I see a CDG as like placing a dagger over someones heart, then thrusting. Maybe with an axe, aiming for the neck like you do golf, take a practice swing aim and then chop.
Cleave is mainly seen as an effect like chopping through an enemies neck and continuing the swing to an adjacent enemy. Unfortunately, then blunt and piercing weapons wouldn't work.
I dunno, tough call, but I think for the sake of limiting power-gamers everywhere, no.

Calrin Alshaw

 

[Hypersmurf]

I dunno, tough call, but I think for the sake of limiting power-gamers everywhere, no.

Yeah! Did anyone see the munchkin CDG-Cleave build in the Sultans of Smack thread?

That thing's a monster.

-Hyp.

 

[FireLance]

You know that's a house rule, right?

-Hyp.

The but about losing an action if you fail to make a Concentration check is implied in the description of the skill:

You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity. In general, if an action wouldn’t normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you need not make a Concentration check to avoid being distracted.

If the Concentration check succeeds, you may continue with the action as normal. If the check fails, the action automatically fails and is wasted. If you were in the process of casting a spell, the spell is lost. If you were concentrating on an active spell, the spell ends as if you had ceased concentrating on it. If you were directing a spell, the direction fails but the spell remains active. If you were using a spell-like ability, that use of the ability is lost. A skill use also fails, and in some cases a failed skill check may have other ramifications as well.

Emphasis mine. But you're right about CDG on the defensive. The fine print states that the does not apply to other actions that provoke AOOs like movement or loading a crossbow.

 

[KarinsDad]

If an invisible creature performs a CDG, does it terminate his invisibility?

Yes, but that does not infer that a CDG is an attack action with an attack bonus. Cleave explicitly states that the previous attack had to have an attack bonus in order for the new attack to have an attack bonus. You cannot cleave with your staff just because you just shot a Lightning Bolt out of your staff and dropped a foe.

"The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an "attack" includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character?s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. If the subject attacks directly it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Note that spells such that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area."

An attack via the invisibility spell is not limited to attack actions. Spell attacks, spell targeting, any form of "direct attack" will result in the invisibility being lost.

Cleave, on the other hand, requires that the previous attack had an attack bonus (and hence, an attack action). Coup De Grace is not an attack. It is a unique action. If you read Bull Rush or Unarmed Strike, they are listed as attacks. If you read Coup De Grace, it is not listed as an attack.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The fine print states that the does not apply to other actions that provoke AOOs like movement or loading a crossbow.

Yup. But getting hit with an AoO while loading a crossbow doesn't prevent you completing the action.

It's not casting a spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using a skill.

Neither is a CDG.

If you want to prevent a CDG with your AoO, Disarm or Grapple.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, but that does not infer that a CDG is an attack action

Imply. (Sorry. That one always irritates me )

Cleave, on the other hand, requires that the previous attack had an attack bonus (and hence, an attack action).

No - it states that the Cleave attack is at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the opponent. "Attack action" is not specified.

A rogue gains sneak attack damage on a CDG. From the Class Feature description: "The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC..."

So, while it's not the Attack Action, a CDG is "the attack that dropped the opponent".

The Cleave attack is with the same weapon - longsword, say - and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the opponent. What bonus did that attack have? It didn't have a bonus.

So, one immediate melee attack, with your longsword, that doesn't have a bonus.

Simple

-Hyp.

 

[Hardhead]

Yeah! Did anyone see the munchkin CDG-Cleave build in the Sultans of Smack thread?

Nope. Where was it? I looked in the Rogues Gallery and the Main thread. Couldn't find it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Nope. Where was it? I looked in the Rogues Gallery and the Main thread. Couldn't find it.

Um, yeah. That's 'cos there isn'ta munchkin CDG-Cleave build. It's not exactly a game-breaker

-Hyp.