Can you Cleave after a Cup De' Grassey?

[KarinsDad]

So your low BAB prone guy makes his Cleave attack at the same low BAB, and adds the same prone modifier.

Agreed. That was a poor example.

The CDG guy uses no BAB, and adds applicable modifiers.

The CDG guy did not have a BAB. Hence, you cannot use the same non-existent BAB as a non-existent BAB.

Coup de grace is a special full round action. It is not a full round attack. It is not a standard action attack. It does not have a BAB. It's non-existent BAB cannot be used to do other things. You cannot Power Attack with Coup De Grace. You cannot Cleave afterwards. You cannot Fight Defensively.

You are not using BAB, hence, you cannot change your BAB or reuse your BAB for something else.

A BAB by book definition is an "attack roll bonus derived...". If there is no attack roll, there is no attack roll bonus. No bonus does not mean zero bonus.

Just because Coup de grace does damage does not mean that you get to use a BAB from it for something else. It is not a "Special Attack" (or in the special attack section). It does not state that you are doing an attack. It states that you are doing damage.


On top of that, if you get damaged while doing a CDG, you must also make a Concentration check.

"it involves focused concentration and methodical action"

"while engaged in some action that requires your full attention."

Concentration does not list CDG, but it does specify actions that require your full attention. Since CDG involves focused concentration by definition, it qualifies.


In fact, I would rule (but this is more of a house rule since it is not explicitly stated) that you cannot even do an attack of opportunity (let alone a Cleave)against others around you while doing a CDG since you do not threaten them.

"you threaten each square into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action"

If you are performing a methodical action that requires focused concentration (e.g. disarm device, casting a spell, picking a lock, coup de grace), you cannot make a melee attack into an adjacent square without giving up that action and concentration. You cannot slowly and methodically be putting a dagger into someone's throat at the same time that you threaten someone else with the dagger.

Now granted, the threaten rules do not explicitly state that if you are concentrating, you do not threaten adjacent squares. However, if you look at the overall rules (AoO against you if you concentrate, threaten only if you have a melee weapon or armed unarmed attack available and useable, cannot AoO if you cannot do an action like when stunned, can lose the spell when casting defensively, etc.), the implication is clear. At least for me. I view this as an omission.

Do you allow a caster who is concentrating on casting Summon Monster I to do an AoO because he has a dagger in one hand? I don't. I think the rules imply it even though they do not outright state it. Casting defensively, on the other hand, does imply to me that you are threatening those around you if you have a dagger in your hand (since you are paying some attention to them). How can you threaten someone who you are ignoring because you are concentrating?

To me, if you are concentrating, you have no BAB because you are not actively attacking or defending. You are doing some other action. JMO on this last part though.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The CDG guy did not have a BAB. Hence, you cannot use the same non-existent BAB as a non-existent BAB.

On the contrary - you use exactly the same non-existent BAB as a non-existent BAB

You cannot Power Attack with Coup De Grace. You cannot Cleave afterwards. You cannot Fight Defensively.

I agree completely that you cannot Fight Defensively with a CDG. Fighting Defensively requires the Attack Action or the Full Attack Action. Likewise Combat Expertise. I can't use Combat Expertise or Fighting Defensively with a Charge action, either.

I disagree on Power Attack. There is no statement in the Power Attack feat to require the Attack Action or the Full Attack Action. I can elect to incur a penalty on all melee attack rolls and gain a bonus on all melee damage rolls in a round.

I can use Power Attack in a round when I double move. I can use Power Attack in a round when I reload a heavy crossbow. It's highly unlikely I'll make any melee attack rolls or melee damage rolls while reloading my crossbow, but the penalty and the bonus apply until the next round. If I should make an AoO before that next round comes up, the bonus and penalty apply.

I can use Power Attack in a round when I Charge. It's not the Attack Action or the Full Attack Action, but it doesn't matter. The melee attack roll of the Charge attack suffers a penalty; the melee damage roll of the Charge attack gains a bonus.

I can use Power Attack in a round when I CDG. There's no melee attack roll, so it doesn't suffer a penalty. There is, however, a melee damage roll, and it gains the bonus.

Power Attack is not "changing" or "reusing" BAB. If my BAB is +7, and I Power Attack for 5, that does not mean my BAB drops to +2. My BAB is +7, and I incur a -5 penalty on my attack rolls. So the fact that I'm not "using" BAB for a CDG is irrelevant. There's a melee damage roll, so the bonus to melee damage rolls is applicable.

Just because Coup de grace does damage does not mean that you get to use a BAB from it for something else. It is not a "Special Attack" (or in the special attack section). It does not state that you are doing an attack. It states that you are doing damage.

... doing damage with a melee damage roll. Let's be precise

It doesn't state that you are "doing an attack". But a Rogue's sneak attack damage applies to attacks. Since SA damage applies to a CDG, a CDG is an attack.

allow a caster who is concentrating on casting Summon Monster I to do an AoO because he has a dagger in one hand? I don't. I think the rules imply it even though they do not outright state it.

They do outright state it.

From the SRD:

Cast a Spell
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.

A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails.

When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration from one round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration after starting the spell and before it is complete, you lose the spell.

You only provoke attacks of opportunity when you begin casting a spell, even though you might continue casting for at least one full round. While casting a spell, you don’t threaten any squares around you.

CDG, on the other hand, states nothing of the sort.

-Hyp.

 

[Hardhead]

Um, yeah. That's 'cos there isn'ta munchkin CDG-Cleave build. It's not exactly a game-breaker

Oh, you must have been using that thing called "sarcasm."

I figured it was some kind of Cleave-using Profession (Executioner) thing.

 

[KarinsDad]

I disagree on Power Attack. There is no statement in the Power Attack feat to require the Attack Action or the Full Attack Action. I can elect to incur a penalty on all melee attack rolls and gain a bonus on all melee damage rolls in a round.

Power Attack:

"You make exceptionally powerful melee attacks"

Coup de grace is not a melee attack. Where in coup de grace does it state that it is a melee attack? Power Attack states that it is for melee attacks (not spell attacks, not ranged attacks, not coup de grace attacks).

Attacks of Opportunities are melee attacks because the AoO rules state so.

Standard Action Melee Attacks are melee attacks because the section on that states so.

Coup De Grace is a full round action that allows you to do damage. Yes, you use a melee weapon (or bow) to do that, but you do not get any attack roll, bonuses to rolls, penalties to rolls. It is an attack, but it is not a "melee attack" and it does not have a "melee attack roll".


You need to perform a melee attack to do Power Attack as per the definition of Power Attack. CDG does not state that you are doing a melee attack (in fact, you are doing something more akin to disarming a trap or picking a lock then swinging a weapon, you are performing a precise concentrated action that results in damage, your tool just happens to be called a weapon).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Power Attack:

"You make exceptionally powerful melee attacks"

You're using flavour text to argue rules?

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

You're using flavour text to argue rules?

You bet. Flavor text IS part of the rules.

"Description of what the feat does or represents in plain language."

Where does it state that this description is not part of the rules?

A Coup De Grace is not like swinging a sword at an opponent.

It is more like cutting the meat off the bone of the steak on your plate. It is a concentration action which is not "melee" at all.

Even the glossary definition of melee attack is "a physical attack suitable for close combat". Where is the combat in a coup de grace? You do not have a resisting opponent.

 

[Saeviomagy]

You're using flavour text to argue rules?

-Hyp.

Not only that, he's using flavour text, and then claiming that disembowelling someone with a melee weapon doesn't even constitute a "melee attack" in flavour text terms.

I wonder if he'd go bonkers about the "small animals" found in the flavour text of the familiars section (since the examples of such creatures are all Tiny or smaller).

 

[Hypersmurf]

You bet. Flavor text IS part of the rules.

"Description of what the feat does or represents in plain language."

Ahhhh.

Plain language.

Not technical terms.

So throw out the glossary definition of "melee attack"; it's not relevant.

-Hyp.

 

[Trainz]

Guys, guys... you're thinking too much.

Stop rules-lawyering and quoting and just stop and think about the spirit of the actions themselves.

First cleave. Cleave is a feat that is intended to illustrate a blow that hits so hard that the momentum downs a foe and the swing is carried to the next target.

Then coup-de-grace. It illustrates the action of concentrating a strike on an helpless foe to take your time and aim a vital spot to finish him.

Cleave is momentum, coup-de-grace is precision and aiming. They clearly do not go hand-in-hand. You can crunch numbers all night long, quoting some rules, ignoring others, but when you step back and look at something clearly and objectively, there comes a time when a DM says "come on...".

 

[Hypersmurf]

First cleave. Cleave is a feat that is intended to illustrate a blow that hits so hard that the momentum downs a foe and the swing is carried to the next target.

Now explain dropping the orc ten feet to the north with your longspear, and using your Cleave attack to hit the orc ten feet to the south...

-Hyp.