Can you Cleave after a Cup De' Grassey?

[Hypersmurf]

The plain language of the book is not allowed.

The glossary definition is not a technical term.

Exactly backwards.

The plain language of the book is allowed, and the glossary definition is a technical term.

But, the "plain language" - the flavour text" - isn't written as technical terms. It's English, not D&Dese.

"You make exceptionally powerful melee attacks" - in plain language - doesn't mean "... powerful melee attacks (see glossary)".

Because of your definition of flavour text - plain language - the glossary definition is not important for interpreting that sentence.

In plain language, cutting someone's throat with a dagger is a melee attack. In technical terms, it's a CDG - but the flavour text isn't written in technical terms.

Remember, this is the same plain language that illustrates that you cannot Cleave after doing a Fireball attack with your staff. Or, do you allow that? Can't have your cake and eat it too Hyp.

'course you can You can't eat your cake without first having it.

The Fireball is the attack. The Fireball comes from a Spell Trigger item. That item happens to share the same physical space as a weapon, but the attack wasn't made with the weapon; it was made with a spell. The Spell Trigger item was used to cast the spell.

So if you can make a melee attack with the Fireball you just dropped an opponent with, feel free.

A CDG, on the other hand, is made with a weapon. And the same weapon is used in the Cleave.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Exactly backwards.

Well, make up your mind. Either those sentences are part of the rules, or they are not.

A CDG, on the other hand, is made with a weapon. And the same weapon is used in the Cleave.

A full round spell is still a spell.
A coup de grace is still an attack.

You cannot do a move action with a full round spell because it is not a standard action.
You cannot do a cleave with a coup de grace because it is not a melee attack.

Until you illustrate that a CDG is a melee attack (not just an attack that uses a melee weapon, TK can be an attack that uses a melee weapon by picking it up and throwing it) with an attack bonus, you cannot do a cleave with it. Until you illustrate that a CDG is a melee attack, you cannot boost its damage with Power Attack.

You can call CDG a melee attack all you want to, but it does not meet all of the literal criteria of a melee attack. It is an attack, it does use a melee weapon, but it is not a combat action, it is a concentration action, and there is no melee attack roll for CDG. You can do a coup de grace outside of combat. You cannot make a melee attack outside of combat.


On a side note, I think they screwed up CDG. If you have a 20th level Wizard with a 30 AC due to a boatload of magic protecting him, I think a 5th level Rogue should have an extremely difficult time killing him in his sleep. The magic should still protect him and although the hit and critical might still be automatic, the Reflex save should be modified by the AC magic protecting him (especially deflection bonuses, luck bonuses, force armor, etc.). JMO.

 

[ThirdWizard]

What Hyp is saying is that if you use flavor text to back up your arguments then you can't assume the flavor text is using game termonology, instead it is using ambiguous termonology. The word "melee attack" has a different meaning when used in technical game terms and when used in flavor text terms; you can't use the two meanings interchangably.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

There IS one way to make a Cleave after a Coup de Grace... Using a weapon enchanted with the Coup de Grace Psionic Enchantment...

AR

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

There IS one way to make a Cleave attack AFTER a Coup de Grace: Using a weapon enchanced with the Coup de Grace Psionic enchantment

AR

 

[two]

There IS one way to make a Cleave attack AFTER a Coup de Grace: Using a weapon enchanced with the Coup de Grace Psionic enchantment

AR

Related question: there is a feat, "death blow" I think, that turns CdG into a "standard action."

Does this/would this effect the cleave-ability of it at all?

 

[ThirdWizard]

Related question: there is a feat, "death blow" I think, that turns CdG into a "standard action."

Does this/would this effect the cleave-ability of it at all?

Nope! 'Cause it would still use the null attack that is in question here.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Until you illustrate that a CDG is a melee attack, you cannot boost its damage with Power Attack.

Power Attack doesn't require a melee attack...

Power Attack applies a penalty to melee attack rolls, and a bonus to melee damage rolls.

All CDG needs to benefit from Power Attack is a melee damage roll... which it has.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Power Attack doesn't require a melee attack...

Power Attack only affects melee attacks as per its description.


The point you are missing is that this CDG not a melee attack whatsoever. It is a CDG action.

If you want to attack someone out of the blue, you get a surprise round (maybe) and can do a standard action melee attack against them. You cannot do a full attack against them. The moment you attempt to attack someone in "melee", you immediately go into combat.

If you try to CDG someone out of the blue, you do not get a surprise round against that target. Just like you do not get a surprise round if you decide to pick a lock. It is a concentration action, not a melee action. You just do it. If you do not kill the character or if the DM has other characters around that want to stop you from doing a CDG, then maybe you will end up in melee.

But, if it is just you and the target, there is no combat. CDG is not a combat melee action, even though it can be used in combat.

You cannot add Power Attack melee damage bonuses to an action which is not a melee attack because Power Attack states that it affects melee attacks. Not spell attacks. Not dropping boulders from the roof attacks. Not missile attacks. Not alchemy fire attacks. Not CDGs.


If your DM states that you threaten the squares around you while doing a CDG and you get an AoO, you can Power Attack that AoO. But, you cannot Power Attack a CDG, regardless of whether you are using a melee weapon to perform that action. It is the wrong type of action. It is a concentration action as specified in its own description. The CDG action allows you do your normal damage as if you were doing a melee attack, but it is not specified as a melee attack anywhere. It also specifically allows Rogues to add sneak attack damage. But, it does not call out anywhere that it allows anymore damage than a normal successful critical damage plus sneak attack damage.


It is an attack, but it is not a melee attack. It can be done out of combat. You are not "meleeing" when you CDG (i.e. you are not swinging your sword and hoping to hit a vital spot), you are performing surgery (i.e. carefully placing your sword in an appropriate location and thrusting it in).

Now granted, I am taking an extremely literal definition of how Power Attack is described and how Coup De Grace is described. The reason I am doing that is because it is unfair (IMO) to lower a non-existent to hit roll and add to a damage roll. I do completely understand your POV, I just think that it should not be allowed and an extremely literal reading of the text disallows it, hence, that is the position I am taking.


But, I doubt you and I will find consensus on this. Let's go argue about something else.

 

[Elvinis75]

Power Attack doesn't require a melee attack...

Power Attack applies a penalty to melee attack rolls, and a bonus to melee damage rolls.

All CDG needs to benefit from Power Attack is a melee damage roll... which it has.

-Hyp.

I would think that is a slippery slope that you are walking Hyper.
So a person doesn’t have to take any attack to use power attack? That seems to fly both in the face of the rules and logic. The feat states:

Benefit: On the character's action, before making attack rolls for a round, the character may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed the character's base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage applies until the character's next action.

The part after the first comma implies that the character is going to make attack rolls that round. Hence the word “making” not the phase “decides to make” or “chooses to make”. Nor does it read before making any action. This is to me is clear that to use power attack you must make a attack roll, to clarify the feats text should be changed to match that of expertise. Can you use power attack or expertise if you can’t attack? Think that these two feats are two sides to the same coin. It is clear that you can’t use expertise if you CDG as you are not taking the attack or full attack action, it is equally clear that CDG is not a melee attack roll. If you don’t “make” an attack roll you are not following the letter of the feat. I would further say that you can’t cleave as it says that you use the same attack bonus as the “attack” that it follows. One part of the equation is not defined. There was no attack roll. That is not the same as zero. It can be proved that it can’t be zero in at least one instance therefore the statement is not true. Take for example if the character has a Total attack bonus of 0. The person they are laying the CDG on has an AC of 25. Saying that the attack roll was zero would mean that the character would not have hit the person on the ground. In short, I’m a computer person and can tell you for a fact that a null does not equal 0. So that sort of number smithing cannot be justified. To cleave you have to have made a previous attack that you can base it off. Since CDG has no attack bonus it is impossible to accurately define the cleave. So even if the rules allow a cleave off a CDG, IMHO they don’t, there is no way to fairly adjudicate that attack.