Can you cleave after making an AoO?

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Can you cleave after making an AoO?

No, I'm being cleaved because he's a moron. Are you telling me that it's easier to hit someone drinking a potion and carry through to someone 10' away than it is to swing your club through the open air, then hit someone?

If you're 10 feet away from the dropped target, the Ogre can't cleave you. You must be standing right next to your dead buddy for the Ogre to cleave you. (that's how I read Cleave)

If, however, you are next to him, it makes perfect sense. So, yes, your buddy is a moron, and you are simply the next victim of a creature with a decent amount of power behind his nasty swings.

NOTE: I don't read "creature in the immediate vicinity" as "anyone within your threat range". I read that as "creature adjacent to your fallen target within your threat range".

 

[mikebr99]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Can you cleave after making an AoO?

No, I'm being cleaved because he's a moron. Are you telling me that it's easier to hit someone drinking a potion and carry through to someone 10' away than it is to swing your club through the open air, then hit someone?

The Ogre isn't allowed to do the latter (directly attack me for free) but he can do the former (directly attack me for free after dropping someone else). It's nonsense.

Well... the Ogre isn't cleaving through the air molecules.. they are moving out of the way of the weapon.

I don't see Cleave as an extra attack after the first one kills... it's still the same one. It's just that powerful that it continues through the dead guy and may hit you also... but it's the same swing.

 

[mikebr99]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can you cleave after making an AoO?

NOTE: I don't read "creature in the immediate vicinity" as "anyone within your threat range". I read that as "creature adjacent to your fallen target within your threat range".

I'll second this.

 

[Forrester]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can you cleave after making an AoO?

If you're 10 feet away from the dropped target, the Ogre can't cleave you. You must be standing right next to your dead buddy for the Ogre to cleave you. (that's how I read Cleave)

If, however, you are next to him, it makes perfect sense. So, yes, your buddy is a moron, and you are simply the next victim of a creature with a decent amount of power behind his nasty swings.

NOTE: I don't read "creature in the immediate vicinity" as "anyone within your threat range". I read that as "creature adjacent to your fallen target within your threat range".

I think most read "immediate vicinity" as "anyone in your threat range", but I agree that reading it the other way makes more sense, and helps make the power less broken.

Nevertheless, it still does not make "perfect sense". I'm more vulnerable to attacks when traveling with idiots, because idiots can be cleaved through? It's more dangerous having someone drinking a potion next to me than it is having nothing but open air?

"You are leaving yourself open, so I can't attack you. So I'll just have to wait until a friend of yours leaves himself open, so I can attack him, and then . . . . attack you."

Riiiiiiiiiiight.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can you cleave after making an AoO?

I don't see Cleave as an extra attack after the first one kills... it's still the same one. It's just that powerful that it continues through the dead guy and may hit you also... but it's the same swing.

That's an OK way of conceptualizing it (it certainly fits the name and the Power Attack pre-req). However, given that, it's completely absurd to allow the attack to strike someone whom you could not have attacked /instead/ of the one you're cleaving.

Keep in mind that every attack roll represents more than one swing - characters swing, dodge, feint, & parry repeatedly in the course of the round. When someone does something dumb enough to provoke an AoO, they effectively blunder into one of those swings, and there's a chance that they get hit. When you /don't/ provoke an AoO, you dodge or parry such swings. So, if an ogre's mighty swing does continue on after he pulps the potion-drinker, the other guy, who hasn't provoked an AoO, will simply avoid it. Or, to be more precise, it'll just be one of several swings that round, which, together, have only the normal chance of hitting - not the extra chance given by an AoO.

 

[AuraSeer]

I'm more vulnerable to attacks when traveling with idiots, because idiots can be cleaved through?

In a word, yes.
If you ever try to fight in a many-against-one melee IRL, you'll realize it's very different from fighting alone. You don't need to worry about attacks from one side, because your ally is there for protection. But on the downside, you have to avoid bumping into them, or swinging your weapon too widely, or advancing too far and blocking their attacks, or any of a dozen other mistakes. It's not easy, and requires an adjustment in mindset.

When your buddy gets dropped, you have to readjust your thinking and movement to account for the change in the battle. In that instant, a skilled opponent (one with the Cleave feat) can take advantage of your unreadiness, and slip through an opening in your guard.

It seems perfectly sensible to me.

[edited to fix typo]

 

[Artoomis]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can you cleave after making an AoO?

That's an OK way of conceptualizing it (it certainly fits the name and the Power Attack pre-req). However, given that, it's completely absurd to allow the attack to strike someone whom you could not have attacked /instead/ of the one you're cleaving.

Keep in mind that every attack roll represents more than one swing - characters swing, dodge, feint, & parry repeatedly in the course of the round. When someone does something dumb enough to provoke an AoO, they effectively blunder into one of those swings, and there's a chance that they get hit. When you /don't/ provoke an AoO, you dodge or parry such swings. So, if an ogre's mighty swing does continue on after he pulps the potion-drinker, the other guy, who hasn't provoked an AoO, will simply avoid it. Or, to be more precise, it'll just be one of several swings that round, which, together, have only the normal chance of hitting - not the extra chance given by an AoO.

This is the best explanation of why NOT to allow an AoO Cleave into a non-AoO provoking target.

 

[mikebr99]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can you cleave after making an AoO?

That's an OK way of conceptualizing it (it certainly fits the name and the Power Attack pre-req). However, given that, it's completely absurd to allow the attack to strike someone whom you could not have attacked /instead/ of the one you're cleaving.

Why is an attack and subsequent cleave as part of an AoO any different from a 1st level fighter who attacks your potion drinking buddy with his one and only attack in the round, killing him and then cleaving you?

 

[Artoomis]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can you cleave after making an AoO?

Why is an attack and subsequent cleave as part of an AoO any different from a 1st level fighter who attacks your potion drinking buddy with his one and only attack in the round, killing him and then cleaving you?

See Tony Vargas' post above for how it's different.

I am not advocating either position, mind you, but his explanation is quite good.

 

[mikebr99]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can you cleave after making an AoO?

Keep in mind that every attack roll represents more than one swing - characters swing, dodge, feint, & parry repeatedly in the course of the round. When someone does something dumb enough to provoke an AoO, they effectively blunder into one of those swings, and there's a chance that they get hit. When you /don't/ provoke an AoO, you dodge or parry such swings. So, if an ogre's mighty swing does continue on after he pulps the potion-drinker, the other guy, who hasn't provoked an AoO, will simply avoid it. Or, to be more precise, it'll just be one of several swings that round, which, together, have only the normal chance of hitting - not the extra chance given by an AoO.

This is exactly why we have a d20... the cleave attempt is just a chance to hit. If your AC is high enough, or the baddie rolls poorly... you actually dodge/avoid it...