Can you cleave after making an AoO?

[Antikinesis]

Hoo, boy... I'm gonna catch some heat from this one. Let's preface this with a great big IMHO...

By the rules, an attack of opportunity is a single melee attack against a provoking foe. When you cleave, you're rolling the attack dice again, so it's another attack (yeah, I know, "... it's the same swing, carried into another character!" Balogna. If it's the same attack, you wouldn't need to roll the dice again.) This second (or more) attack isn't allowed by the AoO description.

Counterpoints to this argument... "But Cleave only requires that you drop a foe!" The rules also say that if you get multiple attacks per action, you have to use a full attack action to get them. An AoO is not a full attack action, so you're not allowed the extra attacks from cleave.

"But what about combat reflexes? That feat re-writes AoO rules, why can't cleave?" Because the combat reflexes feat description specifically mentions AoO's... cleave's description doesn't.

"But what about the feat insert-feat-name-here from insert-feat-source-here that lets you ...?" If it ain't consistent with the core rules, it's broken.


You notice Antikinesis donning his flame-retardant long-johns in preparation for the expected responses.

-AK

 

[mikebr99]

The rules also say that if you get multiple attacks per action, you have to use a full attack action to get them. An AoO is not a full attack action, so you're not allowed the extra attacks from cleave.

But my 1st level fighter can move and them do his std. attack... which kills... then he gets to cleave. Right?

technically multiple attacks during a standard action.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

In a word, yes.
If you ever try to fight in a many-against-one melee IRL, you'll realize it's very different from fighting alone. You don't need to worry about attacks from one side, because your ally is there for protection. But on the downside, you have to avoid bumping into them, or swinging your weapon too widely, or advancing too far and blocking their attacks, or any of a dozen other mistakes. It's not easy, and requires an adjustment in mindset.

When your buddy gets dropped, you have to readjust your thinking and movement to account for the change in the battle. In that instant, a skilled opponent (one with the Cleave feat) can take advantage of your unreadiness, and slip through an opening in your guard.

It seems perfectly sensible to me.

In a word, no.
If you ever try to fight in a many-against-one melee IRL, you'll realize it's very different from fighting alone. You get huge tactical advantages from having allies, and I am not talking about some piddly little flanking bonuses.

If d20 gave appropriate bonuses for allied combatants then it would indeed make sense that you could be vulnerable to an unexpected blow when your ally unexpectedly drops.

Since d20 doesn't give the RL bonuses it does not make sense to keep the RL liabilities.

In short, your arguments do not apply because d20 has been purposely designed to ignore them.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can you cleave after making an AoO?

See Tony Vargas' post above for how it's different.

I am not advocating either position, mind you, but his explanation is quite good.

I understand what he was saying, but personally, I didn't find much use for it. It's not solid enough to convince me. I'm not bashing him, I'm just saying.

One can argue up down left and right about how you are not simply standing still taking your hits after or before your action during a combat round, and I support that, but the fact of the matter is that you are not simply standing there. A lot is going in a combat round, such as Vargas mentioned, swinging, dodging, parrying, etc, which is all represented by your AC, attack rolls, etc.

If you really want to represent someone actively parrying, then you use the opposed attack rolls variant rule from the DMG, otherwise, dodging is passive. If you use the variant, then you would have a chance to parry or dodge the Cleave against you after your buddy drops, which still might hit, but if don't use the variant, then your dodging and parrying is passively represented by your AC and your attacker's attack roll.

I just don't see the problem here, that's all.

 

[kreynolds]

You notice Antikinesis donning his flame-retardant long-johns in preparation for the expected responses.

Don't worry, I won't flame you. I just don't see how any of your points apply.

By the rules, an attack of opportunity is a single melee attack against a provoking foe. When you cleave, you're rolling the attack dice again, so it's another attack (yeah, I know, "... it's the same swing, carried into another character!" Balogna. If it's the same attack, you wouldn't need to roll the dice again.) This second (or more) attack isn't allowed by the AoO description.

Point in fact, Cleave specifically applies to any time you drop an opponent.

Counterpoints to this argument... "But Cleave only requires that you drop a foe!"

Exactly.

The rules also say that if you get multiple attacks per action, you have to use a full attack action to get them. An AoO is not a full attack action, so you're not allowed the extra attacks from cleave.

Point in fact, attacks of opportunity are extra actions (or free actions, however you prefer to look at them) within a round, thus your argument doesn't apply.

"But what about combat reflexes? That feat re-writes AoO rules, why can't cleave?" Because the combat reflexes feat description specifically mentions AoO's... cleave's description doesn't.

It doesn't have to. See first point.

"But what about the feat insert-feat-name-here from insert-feat-source-here that lets you ...?" If it ain't consistent with the core rules, it's broken.

But it is consistent. The problem could be that you have rules regarding making multiple attacks in a single round (full-attack action), yet AoOs override this rule, and then you add on Cleave, which overrides both of these rules, and Great Cleave does so even further.

EDIT: I actually decided to explain myself.

 

[Alejandro]

I remember a raging argument on this exact same topic on the Necromancer Boards. Someone actually got a reply from Skip Williams, and he supports Cleaving off of AoO.

I don't, but that's IMC.

 

[Antikinesis]

Originally posted by mikebr99

But my 1st level fighter can move and them do his std. attack... which kills... then he gets to cleave. Right?

technically multiple attacks during a standard action.

Again, I think my view won't be too popular. Even though Cleave's description doesn't mention it, and other feat descriptions do, I still see cleave as requiring full attack action. ("... multiple attacks per action ...", etc.)

Even if you allow for Cleave being available for a standard attack action, that's still not equivalent to an AoO ("... single melee attack ...", blah blah blah.)

-AK

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

(Oh, no! Drawn into another AoO Cleave thread.)

First of all, let me state that I understand the rules perfectly in this case, and I believe rules as written indicate you can get a Cleave from and AoO.

But it usually doesn't make sense.

Consider two cases...

Case 1: A vs. Monster
Round 1
A hits Monster
Monster hits A
Round 2
A hits Monster, Monster dies.

Case 2: A & B vs. Monster
Round 1
A hits Monster
B drinks potion, Monster hits B with AoO, cleaves & hits A
Monster hits A, A dies

I do not think you can deny that A died because B was standing in the same room being stupid. Note that B could have been standing 10 or 15 feet away, much further with reach, so "he was covering your back" arguments do not apply.

That fails the common sense test in my book.

 

[mikebr99]

Again, I think my view won't be too popular. Even though Cleave's description doesn't mention it, and other feat descriptions do, I still see cleave as requiring full attack action. ("... multiple attacks per action ...", etc.)

Even if you allow for Cleave being available for a standard attack action, that's still not equivalent to an AoO ("... single melee attack ...", blah blah blah.)

-AK

But you will agree that you are in 'house rule' territory?

Because by the rules, a cleave is extra or free from what ever caused it, same as an AoO...

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can you cleave after making an AoO?

If, however, you are next to him, it makes perfect sense. So, yes, your buddy is a moron, and you are simply the next victim of a creature with a decent amount of power behind his nasty swings.

I would argue that it doesn't make sense in the context of d20 rules that you are more vulnerable to attack because a moron is standing next to you than thin air.

Can my Fighter create an Air Cleaving Technique where I get AoOs against imaginary opponents then cleave into the real ones?