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Can you cleave after making an AoO?
- Thread starter malichai
- Start date
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
kreynolds said:
Funny. I could swear the rules are quite clear in both cases.
I see the two issues as essentially the same.
If you haven't noticed almost the exact same tricks that get you a bucket of snails smackdown can work with Combat Reflexes + Greater Cleave. I suppose you typically only get 3 or 4 extra attacks with the AoO route, but that is still quite good. The AoO method is actually more flexible and practical because it uses fewer feats, synergizes with reach weapons, and the timing is less troublesome.
kreynolds
First Post
Ridley's Cohort said:
The one thing you failed to notice is that in the case of AoO + Cleave or Great Cleave, you have absolutely no control over when you get to use them. Unlike Whirlwind Attack + Cleave/Great Cleave, your use of AoO + Cleave/Great Cleave is dependent upon the actions/blunders of others.
Not the same at all.
Artoomis
First Post
Hmmmm.....
But the attack against him is NOT from an AoO cause by his movement - it's acually from cleave fgrom an AoO caused byu someone ELSE's movement.
A most excellent question.
If you allow the cleave, you open up a whole mess of interesting problems like this one.
In this case, the attack is NOT coming on the defenders initiative as an AoO would, so Mobility should not apply.
On the other hand, maybe there should not even be a cleave form the AoO anyway
....
You just have to do what seems best. The rulebook is simply not written with enough precision to cover this circumstance.
But the attack against him is NOT from an AoO cause by his movement - it's acually from cleave fgrom an AoO caused byu someone ELSE's movement.
A most excellent question.
If you allow the cleave, you open up a whole mess of interesting problems like this one.
In this case, the attack is NOT coming on the defenders initiative as an AoO would, so Mobility should not apply.
On the other hand, maybe there should not even be a cleave form the AoO anyway
....You just have to do what seems best. The rulebook is simply not written with enough precision to cover this circumstance.
Originally posted by Tony Vargas
And this fighter is making 5 AoO's per round, how? Combat Reflexes with a +1 Dex modifier allows him 2 AoO's per round, not the 5 you detailed previously. Spread out over 3 rounds (2 / round, then 1) it's not too bad.
I consider a Cleave from an AoO an AoO. The person being Cleaved into doesn't necessarily have to have provoked an AoO, but it counts against the AoO's you can make against them for that round. Not exactly by the rules, but I feel it makes sense.
And this fighter is making 5 AoO's per round, how? Combat Reflexes with a +1 Dex modifier allows him 2 AoO's per round, not the 5 you detailed previously. Spread out over 3 rounds (2 / round, then 1) it's not too bad.
I consider a Cleave from an AoO an AoO. The person being Cleaved into doesn't necessarily have to have provoked an AoO, but it counts against the AoO's you can make against them for that round. Not exactly by the rules, but I feel it makes sense.
Nail
First Post
<sigh>
So, putting everyone's brilliant reasoning, points and counter-points aside for a moment, the solutions proposed for the Cleave - AoO problem are:
#1) There is no problem.
#2) The "immediate free attack" from Cleave and Great Cleave is only effective against enimies within your threatened area and also within 5' of the enemy you knocked down.
or
#3) Cleave does not work with AoOs.
or
#4) A Cleave during an AoO may only be used on others who are also provoking AoOs.
Does that sum it up? Are there other solutions? (In one sentence or less, please. Check your "reasoning" at th' door.)
Sans reasoning, I propose another solution (stolen from a previous thread):
#5) If you drop an opponent during an AoO and have the Cleave feat, you may either do #2 or #4, or you get an extra AoO for that round.
So, putting everyone's brilliant reasoning, points and counter-points aside for a moment, the solutions proposed for the Cleave - AoO problem are:
#1) There is no problem.
#2) The "immediate free attack" from Cleave and Great Cleave is only effective against enimies within your threatened area and also within 5' of the enemy you knocked down.
or
#3) Cleave does not work with AoOs.
or
#4) A Cleave during an AoO may only be used on others who are also provoking AoOs.
Does that sum it up? Are there other solutions? (In one sentence or less, please. Check your "reasoning" at th' door.)
Sans reasoning, I propose another solution (stolen from a previous thread):
#5) If you drop an opponent during an AoO and have the Cleave feat, you may either do #2 or #4, or you get an extra AoO for that round.
Last edited:
Tony Vargas
Legend
Re: Re: Just to sow further confusion...
Heh, we agree on something.
Mobility gives an AC bonus against movement-related AoOs. The bonus attack from the Cleave was generated by a movement-related AoO, the character with mobility is, himself, moving and provoking an AoO, so it makes sense that Mobility would work against it.
Of course, I picked an instance where even I would agree that cleaving off an AoO would be OK.
Now, just for the sake of argument, let's assume that it's OK to cleave off an AoO, period, regardless of what the cleavee is doing.
Say you have Cleave and EWP:Spiked Chain (fun!). A cagey pair of enemies try a moderately sophisticated tactic against you. The first, a Rogue, readies a partial charge against you, to coincide whith his buddy's Spring Attack, so he can get a flanking shot in. The Rogue, however, blows his tumble check (again - or, maybe his DM is mean and won't let him tumble on a partial charge, but didn't mention it to him) provoking a movement-related AoO from you. You kill him with the AoO, and, since his buddy is in mid-spring-attack and adjacent to you, you Cleave into him.
Now, the guy obviously has mobility, and he is moving, does he get his +4 dodge bonus vs your Cleave-off-AoO?
kreynolds said:
Heh, we agree on something.
Mobility gives an AC bonus against movement-related AoOs. The bonus attack from the Cleave was generated by a movement-related AoO, the character with mobility is, himself, moving and provoking an AoO, so it makes sense that Mobility would work against it.
Of course, I picked an instance where even I would agree that cleaving off an AoO would be OK.
Now, just for the sake of argument, let's assume that it's OK to cleave off an AoO, period, regardless of what the cleavee is doing.
Say you have Cleave and EWP:Spiked Chain (fun!). A cagey pair of enemies try a moderately sophisticated tactic against you. The first, a Rogue, readies a partial charge against you, to coincide whith his buddy's Spring Attack, so he can get a flanking shot in. The Rogue, however, blows his tumble check (again - or, maybe his DM is mean and won't let him tumble on a partial charge, but didn't mention it to him) provoking a movement-related AoO from you. You kill him with the AoO, and, since his buddy is in mid-spring-attack and adjacent to you, you Cleave into him.
Now, the guy obviously has mobility, and he is moving, does he get his +4 dodge bonus vs your Cleave-off-AoO?
Tony Vargas
Legend
kreynolds said:
Well, you have the level of control implied by teamwork. If one of your allied can summon up some badgers or toss of bottle of angry hornets next to you, he can pro-actively generate some AoOs for you.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
kreynolds said:
Teamwork! Teamwork!
Timing is the only real difficulty setting up the bucket of snails, too.
Summoned creatures are the obvious route. I think low level illusions and reach weapons are probably the way to go.
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