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Can you cleave after making an AoO?

Cleave (and especially Great Cleave) has always created problem situations. Attacks of Opportunity and Whirlwind Attack are two of the problems. Any feat or game situation that lets you get extra attacks on a large number of enemies or anything that gives you an extra bonus for killing an enemy (like Supreme Cleave) can get out of hand and result in completely illogical situations. I think the current rules for Supreme Cleave only allow you to take your normal 5 foot step once a round, but let you do it in the middle of a Cleave attack.

For those who defend the rules as logical, don't make me invoke blind kobolds (blind kobolds were also used to point out the silly state of Expert Tactician pre-errata). As Ridley's Cohort pointed out, illusions result in more silly situations (and might bring up the whole "cleaving through mirror images" debate). Tony Vargas also bring up the issue of the "bucket of snails" Great Cleave/Whirlwind Attack smackdown or its less abusive equivalent, summoned creatures.

I like the idea of Cleave acting as a sort of Combat Reflexes against weak enemies. I think I'd let you Cleave and use one and only one extra attack on another opponent who is also provoking an AoO (and Mobility and the relevant feats would still apply).

Consider the sorry case of a grand melee with 3 warriors- A, B, and C. All are at 1 HP, have attack bonuses high enough that they never miss, have Great Cleave, and are next to each other. C foolishly tries to drink a potion of healing, provoking attacks of opportunity. A and B both want to attack C and Cleave through him to kill the other one. Whoever gets the AoO wins the battle. If C were an ally of B, B would lose the battle unless he Cleaved his own friend to attack A.
 

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I'm jumping into the middle of a long discussion, but I have seen others post something similar to:
Elric said:
I like the idea of Cleave acting as a sort of Combat Reflexes against weak enemies. I think I'd let you Cleave and use one and only one extra attack on another opponent who is also provoking an AoO (and Mobility and the relevant feats would still apply).
While I quite like this idea, isn't it a problem that you only provoke AoOs when you act? So when I have Cleave and drop X on an AoO, nobody else will be provoking AoOs because it is is X's turn. Am I missing something?
 

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Actually, no. That's the great thing about the ruling - it not only 'fixes' the AoO issue, but also nixxes the much more abusive Whirlwind-Attack-Great-Cleave ("bag 'o rats") combo.

The idea of Cleave is that you can off a lesser foe without trouble, not that offing a lesser foe super-charges you into a quisinart of death.

Actually, I misread your original post - I missed the "against a given opponenet", or, at least, what that actually meant didn't sink in.

I withdraw my original comment, and agree that there is a consistent internal logic within this argument. :cool:
 

Jens said:
I'm jumping into the middle of a long discussion, but I have seen others post something similar to:While I quite like this idea, isn't it a problem that you only provoke AoOs when you act? So when I have Cleave and drop X on an AoO, nobody else will be provoking AoOs because it is is X's turn. Am I missing something?

That's a very good point. I didn't think of that because if I have a lot of weak enemies in battle (when this Cleave tactic would be likely to work), I usually just split them into a couple groups and roll initiative once for each to make things easier. In that case, a group of charging enemies would all go at the same time. Using the initiative rules normally would make Cleave virtually worthless in that situation. You could rule that an attack of opportunity that kills an opponent doesn't "count" against a character's 1 (or higher with Combat Reflexes) attack of opportunity per round limit. However, this might make Great Cleave better than Combat Reflexes in a lot of situations dealing with attacks of opportunity (especially at lower levels).
 



mikebr99 said:
Yeah... the last time I read the Summon Monster x spell, it was from the Conjuration school... not Illusion.

Yep. I also understood them to be real creatures, with them being brought to you from another location and returning there afterwards, and in that case, whirlwind-great-cleaving them would most definately result in an alignment change.
 
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kreynolds said:


Yep. I also understood them to be real creatures, with them being brought to you from another location and returning there afterwards, and in that case, whirlwind-great-cleaving them would most definately result in an alignment change.

[Kirk] Scotty... send me more red-shirts... the're dying left-right-and centre down here!!!

In hindsight... maybe the good captain should have had an alignment change also...
 

kreynolds said:

I hope you aren't suggesting that your buddy can summon a badger that will generate an AoO for you so that you can kill it and cleave.

I'm not so much suggesting it as suggesting interpretations of the rules that would prevent it from being useful.

But, yes, under the litteralist reading of Great Cleave it'd be a viable and effective tactic. So would variations on the "bag o' rats." Rulings aren't just a matter of one simple step of logical analysis. You have to think through the implications. Rules /encourage/ certain actions to take advantage of them. Rules like these encourage the manufacturing of minor 'enemies.' Which is counter-intuitive and (IMHO) undesireable. Ergo: choose an interpretation of the rules that does not encourage such.
 

kreynolds said:


Obviously. Thus it isn't. Unless of course you don't mind your character, and the caster, receiving an alignment shift.

An alignment shift for casting a spell that conjures up disposable monsters?

I'm sorry, punishing the players for taking advantage of a poor ruling isn't solving the problem, it's compounding it.
 

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