Can you flank with a non-ally?

[mvincent]

But the only way to get to that point from the text in the definition of Flanking allows for ranged flanking and flanking-through-a-door as well.

The glossary says:
"flank
To be directly on the other side of a character who is being threatened by another character."

I believe this can occur when no one is attacking, yet still not permit ranged flanking nor flanking-through-a-door.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I believe this can occur when no one is attacking, yet still not permit ranged flanking nor flanking-through-a-door.

So what does "directly" mean?

The line test? Adjacent?

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I believe much of my information will not be of help to you here (i.e. it involves things outside the SRD), so please consider it solely for the benefit of others.

Dooley noted... FWIW, I know what the "intention" of flanking is (or the "spirit" of the rules is), I don't need an FAQ or RotG to help me figure that out.

Also wanted to mention, I find discussing RAW on this board more of a mental test than anything

 

[mvincent]

So what does "directly" mean?

The line test? Adjacent?

I'd have to preclude being several hundred feet away, or being on the opposite side of a door as being "directly on the other side". Viewing it as indicating threatening (or capable of making a melee attack) seems warranted.

 

[mvincent]

FWIW, I know what the "intention" of flanking is (or the "spirit" of the rules is), I don't need an FAQ or RotG to help me figure that out.

I figured, but based on some debates I've seen, that can't always be assumed.

Also wanted to mention, I find discussing RAW on this board more of a mental test than anything

For me, rules debates are more of a research test (i.e. Easter egg hunt).

btw: Here are a few methods I routinely use to quickly find related items (so I don't have to devote my life to memorizing such minutia):
1) d20srd.org's Search utility
2) Google search = '<keyword> "rules of the game" site:www.wizards.com'
3) 3.5 and 3.0 FAQ PDF -> control-f keyword search

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'd have to preclude being several hundred feet away, or being on the opposite side of a door as being "directly on the other side". Viewing it as indicating threatening (or capable of making a melee attack) seems warranted.

If someone ten feet away with a longspear is 'directly on the other side', why not someone ten feet away with a longbow?

The glossary doesn't mention melee attacks or threatening (except in relation to the other character).

If two hobgoblins with falchions are standing one-in-front-of-the-other, and I'm in front of the closest one, am I flanking him? He's being threatened by another character - the hobgoblin - and the glossary makes no mention of requiring the other character to be allied, friendly, hostile to the target, etc?

-Hyp.

 

[Nail]

I find very little on that site that actually imparts anything to my game. Take that statement as you will.

I'm not much of a rules lawyer. My major concerns IMC are: "Is it fun" and "Does it make sense to us".

But as I on occassion run into rules lawyers, in the form of power gamers, I find it handy to have at least an inkling of what tricks they are trying to pull, and therefore frequent this forum. I will always regard supplementary information as just that. Not more or less valid than any other moderately informed opinion. It all has to be filtered.

It takes time and effort to stay informed. With two kids, an abode, and a few other things going on, like trying to put food on a table, I have to restrict myself to certain sites that have a high return value to me and my campaign. I find ENWorld provides a greater value for me than the WotC site. Thereof my original statement, which I stand by. YMMV.

Well put, green slime.

In addition to the uses you ellaborated on above, I also use this site to test my reading, writing, and logic skills. Fun! (...but then, I'm a college prof., so what did you expect? )

 

[green slime]

I don't expect everyone to read all this supplemental information, but I see no need to disparage it when provided. Posters are downright rude here when I offer free research and information.

That wasn't my intent. I do follow links there if I am intrigued (as I did with your post), but I don't hang out there, in the least, therefore my comment.

I suppose I should add that I've given up on their new products as well, to sort of put the statement in perspective.

 

[mvincent]

The glossary doesn't mention melee attacks or threatening (except in relation to the other character).

Since I have no desire to repeat several pages of debate (which is unfortunately lost), I'll ask: Is there anything that can convince you that you can be flanking someone even when no one is making an attack roll? From my military experience, this is how the term is normally used, but I'm ok with agreeing to disagree.

I can see the point that you are trying to make, but I am inclined to view the rules as subject to interpretation here (i.e. at least one WotC author interpreted it differently from you). When I view a D&D rule as subject to interpretation, I usually look to supplemental material to help settle such matters for me. In this, the PHBII manuever description was very clear that flanking can occur outside of an attack roll.

If a core rules reference is desired: the graphic in the PHB pg. 153 reads "Tordek and Redgar are flanking the troll" or (from the D&D boxed game) "Lidda moves to a square from she can attack the monster. She and Redgar are now flanking the monster". These situations are given without an attack roll occuring. Also, the line "two friendly characters flank an opponent..." in the rules implies that at least one character is flanking at a time when he is not melee attacking. i.e. the syntax of flanking implies that one can flank even when it is not their turn (or consequently, when they are not currently attacking with a melee weapon).

 

[mvincent]

That wasn't my intent.

Thank you for clarifying. My apologies for lumping you into that group of people. I just see it so frequently on this particular board that I dread anytime I post researched supplemental WotC information here.