Can you flank with ranged weapons?

[ZSutherland]

I knew you couldn't flank with a ranged weapon, since it has not threat area, but if an enemy is already flanked by to two allies, can the rogue get sneak attack with ranged attacks then? I.e. Fighter1 is one square west of Enemy. Fighter2 is one square east of Enemy. Enemy is now flanked. If Rogue is 25 feet north of enemy, can he get his sneak attack damage by firing at Enemy, assuming he makes the shot with the -4 from attacking an enemy engaged in melee? Regardless of sneak attack, does someone attacking a flanked opponent with a ranged weapon get the +2 to strike? Some of the prior posts seem to indicate no.

 

[Pax]

Hmm. I can think of spells to handle this (hold person etc), but are there any mundane ways that a fighter and rogue can accomplish this as a duo? (our rogue got tired of being beat upon in melee combat and really wants to go ranged - but wants some means of keeping his sneak attack damage too).

Tanglefoot bags. Heh. Have the rogue (and/or Fighter) carry bagsfull of them, or invest a mere 6Kgp in a Rod of Viscid Globs (usable 6/day for an effect identical to the Tanglefoot Bag ...).

 

[Staffan]

I knew you couldn't flank with a ranged weapon, since it has not threat area, but if an enemy is already flanked by to two allies, can the rogue get sneak attack with ranged attacks then? I.e. Fighter1 is one square west of Enemy. Fighter2 is one square east of Enemy. Enemy is now flanked. If Rogue is 25 feet north of enemy, can he get his sneak attack damage by firing at Enemy, assuming he makes the shot with the -4 from attacking an enemy engaged in melee? Regardless of sneak attack, does someone attacking a flanked opponent with a ranged weapon get the +2 to strike? Some of the prior posts seem to indicate no.

No in both cases. That's because "flanking" is inherent to the attacker, not the defender. In other words, the attacker is flanking the defender but there's no such thing as the defender being flanked by attackers.

 

[0-hr]

if an enemy is already flanked by to two allies, can the rogue get sneak attack with ranged attacks then? I.e. Fighter1 is one square west of Enemy. Fighter2 is one square east of Enemy. Enemy is now flanked.

Heh, we used to make that exact same mistake. The key to getting things straight, at least for my group was to realize the following:

A creature is never flanked.

A creature can be flanking another creature, but a creature cannot itself ever be in a state of being flanked. In your example, Fighter1 is flanking the Enemy and Fighter2 is flanking the enemy. That is all you can say. It is not correct, in game terms, to say that the Enemy is "flanked" though. There is no state of being flanked, only of flanking.

When there is a fighter on each side of the enemy, it is the state of the fighters that is changed. They go from normal to flanking mode. The state of the Enemy is not changed at all. So no one other than the fighters gets that +2 bonus to hit the enemy, and the rogue cannot sneak attack.

When something is flanked, it is only flanked from the point of view of the person doing the flanking. It is not flanked from anyone else's point of view. In other words, the flanking lies wholly with the flanker, and not at all with the flanked.

There, that should clear things up perfectly, nothing confusing at all...

 

[Stalker0]

Probably the three bests way to do it are:

1) Invisibility or hiding. Something most rogues are preety good at and the figher doesn't have to do a thing.

2) Tanglefoot bags: A more expensive but elegant solution. And has other benefits as well.

3) Tripping. Have the figher trip the opponent. Although you get a penalty for shooting at a guy on the ground, its only -2 I believe its much less than the 50% clock your own guy that grapple would give you.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

A creature is never flanked.

Or to put it another way, flanking is a relationship an attacker can have to a defender, not a state a creature is either in or not.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

But what if the rogue hid himself? IMC, if the rogue is able to beat the opponents Spot with a Hide check (assuming it is possible under the conditions), he can essentially make a Sneak Attack on his next initiative. I usually rule that he has to Move Silently to a flanking position as well to gain the sneak attack. This is all if he wants to do a ranged sneak attack.

If they are fighting in a big enough area, I figure that he can usually attempt a hide if the target is engaged in melee. If not, it is usually not possible, unless the environment really supports it.

This will not usually work because, according to the hide skill description, it is impossible to hide while under direct observation. So if the enemy can see you, you can't hide at all without first using a standard action to bluff your foe (unless you're a shadowdancer within 10' of a shadow).

Pax Wrote:
Tanglefoot bags. Heh. Have the rogue (and/or Fighter) carry bagsfull of them, or invest a mere 6Kgp in a Rod of Viscid Globs (usable 6/day for an effect identical to the Tanglefoot Bag ...).

It doesn't work that way. A tanglefoot bag entangles a foe, reducing his movement (to 0 if he fails his save) and inflicting a -4 effective dex penalty and -2 to all attack rolls but it does not deny an opponent their dex bonus. Just because a character's dexterity isn't high enough to give them a bonus doesn' t mean that they are denied their dex bonus. Otherwise, every attack against a character with 11 or lower dexterity would be a sneak attack.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

3) Tripping. Have the figher trip the opponent.

This one doesn't necessarily work either. Being prone does not deny Dex bonus to AC. You might very well be able to argue that while the foe was being tripped he was "off balance," which does deny Dex bonus to AC, but to strike at exactly that moment you'd have to Ready your attack.

 

[Shaele]

Spells it is!

It looks like the best bet for our little rogue is to have the party wizard cast Improved Invisibility - a lot

 

[Corlon]

all I've got ta say is

QUICKER THAN THE EYE

make of it what you will