Pathfinder 1E Can you Pathfinderize Wheel of Time d20?

[pawsplay]

I'm not greatly familiar with the WoT game, although I've looked at it before. If I were going to Pathfinderize it, I would do as follows:

- Upgrade to Pathfinder skill system
- Replace core feats with core Pathfinder feats, i.e. Toughness for Toughness, Cleave for Cleave, add Vital Strike, etc.
- Consider replacing the Arsmen with the PF fighter, considering using the Rogue, etc. I would assume high defense for heavy armor fighters, medium for everyone else. Low would be for a hypothetical caster, non-fighter, which you wouldn't be porting over.
- Start PCs mostly at 3rd level
- See how close I am to what I want

If that doesn't do it, I'd:

- Use the book as a campaign book and scrap most of the mechanics.
- Shop around for freeform magic systems and systems that implement a smaller amount of magic in the world
- Implement the same number of casting classes as there were before

 

[fireinthedust]

Volaran and I were talking about it, and we've come to the conclusion that a Wheel of Time game would probably fit the best as an E6 game, with the channeling continuing with feats after 6th level, etc.
It keeps the mundane much more mundane, without having to spread a bunch of bonuses across 20 levels.

Speaking as an E6 fan, and GM of an ongoing E6 campaign, I don't think so. Not and having it fit the books. There are issues, and you raise great points, but my conclusion from those points is that it's a low-magic system (ie: Defense score rather than item bonuses) with powerful casters, but that it still needs all 20 levels for those casters. (sort of an Ars Magica situation, actually)

E6 is a solution for D&D, which has powerful Mundanes at low level but loses consistency at higher levels (well, actually it just becomes a different game than low-level play, so you need to use different arenas for the characters, and different expectations in order to have fun). It's not balanced, as casters are lower powered than melee combatants.
What it is, though, is grounded in reality: jump checks won't vault a character over a castle wall, and swords through the brain *will* kill you.


I think the casting system would need to change dramatically to allow for channelers at 6th level to gain access to a level higher of spells without changing the math (DCs, etc.) and I don't know if it would be good.


However, you're right about dumb higher level bonuses and empty levels for Mundanes. I've been thinking about it, and I'd rather scour 3e and PF (and Saga) for traits to give the classes in WoT in a Pathfinder-esque way. They are fine, in essence and in division of roles; but they need more stuff to be interesting. Mundanes will never match casters in any high-level game; but they should have more going for them than +4 initiative once or twice!

I would assume high defense for heavy armor fighters, medium for everyone else. Low would be for a hypothetical caster, non-fighter, which you wouldn't be porting over.

Here I disagree:

1) The low Defense bonuses for Armsman are to counter their use of heavy armor. I'd rather give them Medium Defense bonus, and give High to the non-armor melee classes (aiel warrior... can't remember the proper name; and Woodsman).

2) Freeform Magic Systems: Hrm... I could see something like Monte Cook's World of Darkness mage casting system coming in here, though that's also mega-powered. I like the casting system as is, really, in that it captures the flavour of the books (as I remember them).
I would change the level requirement for Warder big time, however. No way it's a 5th level spell! 3rd level, I think, would do fine; unless Aes Sedai don't learn that weave at a much higher level, and there are loads more high level characters in the setting than in other games. E6 concepts included, it's a pretty common weave, and it means a Warder PC must have a high level mentor dragging them around, instead of a fellow, at-level PC.

I think maybe just giving more feats to the Armsman (as a counter to the Initiate) and more skills/traits for the others should do it.

The campaign will be more E6 if only because there's virtually no magic items in the game: everyone stays pretty much "human" or heroic tier throughout, excepting the more powerful Channelers (ie: Rand and the Forsaken).
This, in fact, has got me thinking about a comparison with Star Wars Saga Edition in general. The soldier, scout, scoundrel, noble and caster! The defense bonus is 1/2 level (or should be), and is there because there will not be any item bonuses to AC (and Saves) at any point in the system.

The lack of save bonuses is a bit disturbing, actually, at higher levels. I think a higher save rate may be called for, but I'll do the math for the Weaves at higher levels before I'm sure.

So yeah: do I want to Pathfinderize WoT; or maybe WoT-ize Pathfinder classes (add Defense, etc.)...?

 

[pawsplay]

Here I disagree:

1) The low Defense bonuses for Armsman are to counter their use of heavy armor. I'd rather give them Medium Defense bonus, and give High to the non-armor melee classes (aiel warrior... can't remember the proper name; and Woodsman).

Most alternative defense bonus systems assume medium or high for the Fighter, under the assumption that they are losing larger armor and shield bonuses as well. However, if the WoT doesn't use armor as DR, that is an argument for being conservative. Nonetheless, a medium or low defense Fighter is going to get hit, and hit, and hit at higher levels. Also, I don't have any idea what the WoT bonus charts look like, but if you give the Fighter/Arsmen a lower bonus, remember that the bonus from armor has to more than make up the difference, otherwise you've turned them into a second-rate defender who just has a few extra HP.

2) Freeform Magic Systems: Hrm... I could see something like Monte Cook's World of Darkness mage casting system coming in here, though that's also mega-powered. I like the casting system as is, really, in that it captures the flavour of the books (as I remember them).

Sure. But there are other, modular systems out there if you were looking for an alternative.

 

[fireinthedust]

if? hahahaha, I'm *always* looking for alternatives, even if I'll never use them


The Defense charts end up with +8 for the armsman at level 20; +13 for the Aiel warrior at level 20. I agree about the high level issues here. I don't think they thought that level of play through.

I think there's something about the game that was so early 3e that it assumed many pre-3e things. Fighters needing nothing more than a good Thac0 being one of them. I remember it that no one really looked at the math with a challenge to its "logical perfection" or questioned its playability: it just was. The idea of fighters getting their feats as it was improved greatly over the old model, and any improvement of any kind seemed like a big deal when 3e came out. 2e, remember, had truly meager bonuses for everyone except spellcasters, who had to use their spells. The concept of balance wasn't an issue anyone talked about (who I gamed with, at least). I don't think it is the point in any game except 4e, mostly because of the assumption of non-game options: alliances, role-playing, and player trickery: approaching a challenge logically, as a human being in that situation would, rather than as a video game character with only 4 buttons to choose from.

In 2e, even discussing the above would brand someone a "power-gamer": someone who's trying to eek out (gasp) advantages (/gasp) from their character in any fashion. A cardinal sin! This was when fighters only knew 3-4 different weapons (ie: longsword, short sword, broadsword, battle axe, but that's it: no great sword, great axe, throwing axe, longbow, etc.), and every "proficiency check" was basically an ability score check.
The difference is such that it's the difference between an unhealthy starving child re: Oliver Twist, and a kid whose parents feed them with the expectation that they want them to grow up and be happy and have kids of their own some day.

So that's what I'm seeing traces of in the creation of this game, sort of. Different assumptions in the design process, based on the game culture of a different era.

 

[Kaisoku]

So that's what I'm seeing traces of in the creation of this game, sort of. Different assumptions in the design process, based on the game culture of a different era.

I was going to commment on that, but you beat me to it. It really does have a 2e feel to the classes.

Some Thoughts:

- There are those that learned how to channel, and others who were born with the ability to touch the one power whether they wanted to or not.
This, to me, makes me feel like there's room for two things: classes for learning/expanding the ability, and some other "born with this" effect.
My friend and I were thinking a feat, but you could pick it at first level instead of your traits.

- With the above in mind, other "born with it abilities" come to mind: Min's Ta'veren seeing ability (and thus channeler seeing), Wolf brothers, Sniffers, Dreamers, Foretellers, and people with strong ties to their past lives (Old Blood). All these things could be something that was picked up in replacement of the starting traits.

- While there isn't much in the way of magical items, a "Sword made by the One Power" could be considered an option, as long as it's limited to non-flashy bonuses (enhancement bonuses, Keen, bane dark one's minions, etc).
Matt's staff, the horn of valere, the amulet that stops the one power and hurts the grey men (likely an anti-magic amulet that protects against channeling, and hurts one power -infused -created creatures). The bowl that controls weather, etc.

- E6 keeping skill checks and attack rolls into the realm of the mundane (without the one power created equipment) is exactly the reason for keeping things down at this level.
If allowed to go to 20 levels, then the player expectation of the mundane character getting into non-mundane effects with his skills is necessary.

You'll have to decide: are the players playing the main characters? or are they playing someone on the sidelines, or before the epic events of the current era?

- Channeling will definitely still need to increase beyond 6th level, however it can be done with the added feats gained after 6th. This gives the higher "spellcasting", without going into higher DCs, higher saves, or skills or attack, etc.

A "high powered" channeler, unless trained for combat, shouldn't have amazing BAB, no matter what level. Having even a 10th level channeler having the ability to fight better than a 1st level soldier, breaks some concepts in the game.

The option to increase channeling outside of class levels should exist. This also gives the option of having combat or rogue trained players that gain channeling. Some of the Forsaken were better at fighting than the level of channeling most of the rest of them had. Some initiates (those that had to learn how to use the one power) had come from some rogue-like backgrounds.


Just some food for thought.

 

[fireinthedust]

- There are those that learned how to channel, and others who were born with the ability to touch the one power whether they wanted to or not.
This, to me, makes me feel like there's room for two things: classes for learning/expanding the ability, and some other "born with this" effect.
My friend and I were thinking a feat, but you could pick it at first level instead of your traits.
- With the above in mind, other "born with it abilities" come to mind: Min's Ta'veren seeing ability (and thus channeler seeing), Wolf brothers, Sniffers, Dreamers, Foretellers, and people with strong ties to their past lives (Old Blood). All these things could be something that was picked up in replacement of the starting traits.

They have those as feats anyone can take. You get the initial "latency" feat, and then follow-up feats. As is, feats are too rare, BUT even with only PF's 1/2 levels this is more affordable.

- While there isn't much in the way of magical items, a "Sword made by the One Power" could be considered an option, as long as it's limited to non-flashy bonuses (enhancement bonuses, Keen, bane dark one's minions, etc).
Matt's staff, the horn of valere, the amulet that stops the one power and hurts the grey men (likely an anti-magic amulet that protects against channeling, and hurts one power -infused -created creatures). The bowl that controls weather, etc.

Yep, they have that stuff also. Most of it requires channeling ability, but some doesn't (just like in the books).

The swords sound to me like adamantine blades, perhaps with Keen on them. Bonuses to hit and damage are likely unneeded, as the game assumes no item bonuses. Even with PF alterations, there isn't the same place for items except as unique additions for a hero/villain. Monsters in the game are relatively rare or low level, so it's not like my PF fighter would be facing off against a creature he needed a +5 weapon to defeat its AC.

- E6 keeping skill checks and attack rolls into the realm of the mundane (without the one power created equipment) is exactly the reason for keeping things down at this level.
If allowed to go to 20 levels, then the player expectation of the mundane character getting into non-mundane effects with his skills is necessary.

I think skill checks are the issue for the 20 level spread at this point. That's a pickle, though, unless there's a hard & fast house rule for "you can't leap tall buildings in a single bound" regardless of plus.

I'm considering ability checks at this point, then. Or got he DCCrpg route of no skills, and instead everyone has a background with associated skills (ie: sailor means they can tie ropes, balance, run a ship, fish, etc.). Maybe even introduce a sort of "level 0" block of skills, I don't know. That's a major change and, yes, not Pathfinderizing it.

You'll have to decide: are the players playing the main characters? or are they playing someone on the sidelines, or before the epic events of the current era?

Main characters! ...of their own story. Mind you, the world is a big place. I recall a duel Rand gets in against some bald guy for a bag of gold. Clearly this no name guy is a blademaster, and a potential adventurer. Also, other Aes Sedai are powerful and have their own stories. It just won't be Rand's story, and most of the time the PCs will be journeying outside the range of the WoT storyline (ie: in Tar Valon when Rand et al are in, say, Tear).

- Channeling will definitely still need to increase beyond 6th level, however it can be done with the added feats gained after 6th. This gives the higher "spellcasting", without going into higher DCs, higher saves, or skills or attack, etc.

A "high powered" channeler, unless trained for combat, shouldn't have amazing BAB, no matter what level. Having even a 10th level channeler having the ability to fight better than a 1st level soldier, breaks some concepts in the game.

The option to increase channeling outside of class levels should exist. This also gives the option of having combat or rogue trained players that gain channeling. Some of the Forsaken were better at fighting than the level of channeling most of the rest of them had. Some initiates (those that had to learn how to use the one power) had come from some rogue-like backgrounds.


Just some food for thought.

Rand in the book is a multiclass armsman/wilder/blademaster. Other characters are multiclass.

What I think of the setting is that it assumes E6, with the most powerful channelers in it being 12th level+. That's hugely powerful when everyone else of note is approximately 6th level or so. Most full Aes Sedai would be, say, Initiate 6/Aes Sedai 1 or 2; then they stop progressing as they're already hugely powerful. At that point, they're not better than a well-built fighter 1, especially having low physical stats and HD, and no AC worth mentioning.

And thanks for the food!

Update: I've started re-reading the series. Good so far. I'm going to go over the Scout and Ranger classes, and rebuild a progression for the Woodsman first. Ditto the Armsman/fighter and soldier. The Noble I'll check out the Noble progression. And for Wanderer I'll check out the Rogue and Scoundrel classes.
Clearly unpublishable, but if I can figure out how to make a Wiki, I'll post it!

btw: anyone know how to make a wiki?

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Part of me wishes 3e had more SWSE talents in it, but oh well. A fantasy version of that system would cover so many bases for WoT!

While I can't speak to your overall goals with the conversion, I can point you to a rather credible OGL implementation of many of the rules that appear to have gone into SWSE.

It's called "Fantasy Concepts" and was written with an explicit goal of trying to recreate a Sword & Sorcery style game, fueled by the OGL rules that appear to make up SWSE.

You can find it here:
Fantasy Concepts Campaign Resource by Jason Kemp in Games

That should get you going along nicely. Either blend it into Pathfinder or blend Pathfinder into it to suit your tastes.

 

[fireinthedust]

neat!

 

[fireinthedust]

Okay, been going over the Woodsman.

I want to create a sort of non-spell Ranger, without an Animal Companion unless they're higher level, perhaps, as this is Robert Jordan and not D&D. Keep in mind there is the option of the Wolfbrother PrC, for those bestially inclined woodsmen. A true Woodsman should be a robin hood character, I think, with light or no armor but plenty of arrows and fencing techniques; with a wilderness tracker streak, and a Barbarian edge option for those who like playing rough.

So far I'm tempted to think up some Packages for types of Woodsmen (read: wilderness warriors), and I'm thinking an Archery package, a Barbarian package, and a TWF package (maybe, though Armsman would be best for swordfighting, so maybe make it a Stealth/Scout package? We're not D&D here, after all, and don't have to please everybody (or even anybody, if the main book's critics are any measure )). I could see Beastmaster from 4e working, though I'd take it from less mystical and more "you have a pet you've trained well" POV; anything more would need channeling or a PrC like a varient Wolfbrother (and we've seen neither as part of WoT, so it's a non-issue). We'll see.

By package I mean like the Wizard Specialist schools, or the Sorcerer Bloodlines. That or just having traits to pick, like the Barbarian and Rogue.

I'm also thinking about the 20 level spread, and how the only truly high level characters in the books are Aes Sedai. Rand isn't a straight Channeler, he's Multiclass, but he happens to be reasonably powerful (in the book he's a 12th level Wilder with extra feats and serious Overchannel and some Angreals, which is terrifically powerful for the setting: most people are max 6th level, with 10th level a big deal).

For Woodsman, 20th level could include capstones like environment-favouring for the Dreamworld, or the Ways. I dunno.

more on the way.

 

[pawsplay]

If you want a non-magical woodsman, I can sell you a Hunter and a Scout:

http://paizo.com/store/games/rolepl...RPG/tripodMachine/v5748btpy8bu5&source=search

I don't know if it's exactly what you're looking for, but I can promise you this will build out the class options for a Pathfinder game considerably.