Pathfinder 1E Can you Pathfinderize Wheel of Time d20?

[Kaisoku]

Ah, I can't get direct access to my old stuff (on an old broken laptop with raid0 drives, so nearly impossible to recover on my own), but after checking the Wheel of Time Wiki, I found what was missing from the d20 rules: Unweaving and Inverting.

With Unweaving, because of the description (the strands getting slippery, failure can mean snapping into place in a random/dangerous weave), it really, really felt better as a skill check type of thing.

Which led me to thinking that the game was kind of missing an "Intelligence" aspect to it. No real "focus" Intelligence (class-wise really, just a few extra slots on the Initiate really).

So it led me to move over a few things to an Int-based "channeling" check:

- Unweaving: Treated similar to disable device in manner of use (failure by too much = kaboom).
- Tie Off: The current feat sets the time to one thing dependant on level, while in the books the channelers could put small or large tie offs (for longer or shorter durations), that could also be picked apart if someone was good at it (likely another use of unweaving). This check could set the duration and DC for the tied off weave.
- Inverting: This makes your weave invisible even while active. This should likely work as a set DC based on the difficulty of the weave (so that someone doesn't just run along and invert everything they do).
- Learning a weave that you see (active, or residual).

Now, allow a feat that grants bonuses to specific checks, and you can have your "not so bright, but still talented" channeler doing some of these things easily.

It also made sense that the Initiate would be better at doing these things (with having some reason for Int), as it's more of a classically trained type of thing.

 

[fireinthedust]

I'd go with a Channeler Level check. Rand does a fair amount of unweaving throughout the series iirc, and he's a Wilder.

That or have the understand weave skill (for seeing if you can remember weaves you see cast) count for more than just that use: unweaving also. You can already Skill Focus this skill, you're just adding more uses to it.

 

[fireinthedust]

If you want a non-magical woodsman, I can sell you a Hunter and a Scout:

paizo.com - Adventuring Classes: A Fistful of Denarii (PFRPG) PDF

I don't know if it's exactly what you're looking for, but I can promise you this will build out the class options for a Pathfinder game considerably.

Well the price is certainly right!

I'm enjoying designing my own stuff, but I'll try to check them out at the end of the month; they look neat, and gladiator as a class may be well done.

 

[DisFanJen]

I've been considering converting WoT to PF for a while but if I'm honest it wasn't easy to face the mammoth task alone. So finding this thread was a godsend!

So, has there been any progress on this, a collaborative wiki perhaps?

The only thoughts that I have on this so far are (these may have been covered):

Tightening the classes, channeler's only learn channeling. Fighters, fighting, etc. If a channeler wants to be able to fight, let them multi-class.

Having a sword master prestige class. It'd be great to have all of those cool names for fight moves as feats giving bonuses to ATT, AC, CMB, or CMD.

Channeling has to become a point based system. It's the only way to get anywhere near the feel of the books. My personal thought is to have an amount they can channel in one go and and amount per day. Exceeding either of these would count as overrchanneling.

It'd be nice if the amount of points they get per level increased at a differing rate from character to character, connected a stat maybe. Simply to simulate how more experienced (so in game terms higher level) characters can be weaker in the power than less experienced. Not sure how you could balance this though.

I think unweaving should be a separate skill, as in the books it's a thing Aiel wise ones know, but Aes Sedai don't. So making it linked to a single skill wouldn't fit. Maybe that means all of the different channeling talents should be split. This would further focus the class as to be good at all the skills their skill points go on channeling alone.

They are the things that come instantly to mind without referring to the books (both RJs and the D20 ones). If I can help with this I'd love to as I'd love to introduce my chars to the wonders of WoT.

Edit: if you spot an odd word that is out of place, please ignore. This is typed on my iPad and it has a tendency to autocorrect in the oddest words...

 

[DisFanJen]

One other thought while I remember, should there be different classes for the different types of channelers?

Being Aes Sedai, Ashaman, etc. Is a rank, affiliation rather an a class IMO.

So should you be a channeler class and wether you are a wilder, Aes Sedai, Ashaman, etc. be a trait, RPed?

Wilder would be a flaw that blocks your ability to channel until the block is dealt with, Initiate a 1 point trait, and Aes Sedai\Ashaman a 2 point trait.

Or possibly initiate is neutral, as though you a not blocked, it's unlikely you are away from the tower with permission, and Aes Sedai\Ashaman as 1 point trait.

Not sure if the different levels of the black tower should be handled in the same way, and of course if the campaign starts before the creation of the Black Tower then the male options would be locked out.

For wilder, I never noticed Rand having to struggle with a block, so maybe for males that is substituted for the madness...

Possibly too complicated and hard to balance I know but I'm throwing out ideas that would fit the game, then worrying about how we'd shoehorn them in after.

 

[DisFanJen]

One more thought, my last for today I promise.

Channelers should become fatigued if they overchannel, even if they succeed. Again this is represented in the books quite well, and in fact the reverse should be true, if fatigued or on 1HP\lower but still standing. Any channeling should initiate an overchanneling roll.

I like the idea of 'cantrips', essentially 0 point effects. But if The char is in a fatigued\low HP state as above they should cost 1 point to use, though not trigger an overchanneling roll.

Ok, I'm done.

As you can see I'm approaching it from the point of simulating the books rather than worrying about the game mechanics at this point, with a view to balancing as the ideas are fleshed out.

 

[Kaisoku]

I've been thinking on this for a while, and have decided to do that same approach: write down how it is in the books, and build the system up from there instead.

This, of course, requires me to pretty much build from scratch instead of doing a conversion from the existing d20 book. Which is fine, I liked the idea of E6 for this better anyways, which would require throwing out the existing progressions.


Here's some of the things I've looked at:

- The One Power seems like it's a combination of spontaneous and learned casting, using psionics (yes, a sorcerer/wizard/psion combination).
Basically, you cast any spell you know, and you can learn any number of spells, and you use points to fuel casting.

- The current era, aside from a few channelers (Rand, Forsaken, a few of the girls, etc), is fairly "low magic". This can be modeled well with simply having weaves require to be learned, and thus no one there to train means no new weaves (automatic limit).
Sure, there's experimentation and witnessing a Forsaken do something that's from the Age of Legends, but that's rare, and still strictly limited. No Jo Cars and influx of ter'angreal, nor weapons made from the One Power.

- Focusing your mind should be a trained skill thing. It should be the skill that is used to access the one power. It should also be the skill used for advanced combat stuff (blademasters, sword forms, and generally good combatants, such as a few archers I recall reading about).
This lets non-channelers get some nice things beyond the mundane equipment and abilities.
Remember, ignoring the effects of weather and environment is specifically called out as not a use of the One Power, but "a trick of the mind". Note also Lan's use of "ko'di". Tam's Flame and Void, etc.

- Since an Aes Sedai can be trained as a Wise One, and vice versa, and various other permutations... it really doesn't make sense to have different classes for channeling, even with prestige classes.
What makes more sense is a single class for progression, and what you get from the training is what weaves you know, feats to access, etc.
A wilder's block feels as much as roleplaying restriction as an Aes Sedai not being able to lie. This can change based on roleplaying events (learning to break through the block, or being released from the Oath Rod, etc).
They each carry their own set of roleplaying effects (can lie and attack people with the power, and Aes Sedai making even Kings come to heel).

- The biggest difference in channeling is between the sexes. I really like the idea of women using Wisdom for most of their stat effects on channeling (except the skill the stuff), while men using Charisma for most of their channeling.
Women having to respond to the One Power, guiding it through letting it flow.. while men grasping the One Power and forcing it to do what they want, on that edge of disaster.
Also, the progression of power points might be different, since women are said to have a steady increase in power until they've fully grown into their ability, while males tend to have plateaus and growth spurts.

- The way that channeling is limited (and therefore kept at a somewhat even footing with the normals), is that you have to grasp the one power, and then build up to holding the amount of power you want, like turning on a faucet.
If this is limited by time (with ways of making it go faster, like quickdraw for casters essentially), then a channeler can take time to respond with the One Power to a situation. Arrows being something Aes Sedai fear quite justifiably.
Also, there's mention of "channeling sickness", something wilders tend to get, that happens from holding too much one power for too long, over a long period. This is disincentive to just walk around holding the one power all day long, every day. That and the taint for males (or saa with the True Power).
That, and some shadowspawn (and other evil things), as well as other channelers, can sense someone holding the one power... which can be a very, very bad thing when it comes to Forsaken or Gholams/Myrdraal.

- Affinities and Talents all seem like things you can grow into, so they should be something you can pick up with feats later on in the game.
I'm still not sure if weaves should be separated into Talents, because it seems like there just some weaves that anyone can use (and not just 0 level ones).
Like.. while people might have a "talent" for Healing, and not having that talent means only access to 0th or 1st level stuff, things like Bonding a Warder doesn't really ever get referenced as "I don't have a Talent at Conjunction, so I can't really bond a warder".
It seems to better suit a Talent as a "bonus" thing (since most talents are one single thing anyways, like Delving), and some also grant access to extra weaves, or more powerful versions of weaves.

- The difference in strength between females and males, as well as skill (females being more skilled than males), should likely be ignored in character creation, just like how differences in physical capabilities are pretty much ignored.
Let the player play the character they want.. the rest of the world can simply be designed around the sexes being different.
I you have a feat that grants bonus points and let the skill focus feat apply to weave stuff that requires skill, then it's pretty simple to tailor NPCs around males being stronger, females being more skilled.

- An idea we've been bouncing around with ta'veren is action points. Action points have always been a method of player narrative control, which is ultimately what ta'veren area.
A sidebar with different options would probably be best.
I personally like the idea of the DM deciding a particular person (or set of people) being ta'veren for the moment, and gives them some action points to use.
I also like the idea of a player being able to use an action point at any time, but doing so when you don't have any means the DM pulls a pathfinder plot card and uses a negative effect against you at some point later on.
This fits the game style (more storyteller), and the setting involved.

 

[fireinthedust]

I'm still working on the original I'd brought up int he OP. I'm really swamped at work, but I'll post when I get some days off!

1) I like the idea of a wiki, but I'll start an ENworld group on Wednesday, if you can wait that long.

2) I like the d20 book's channeling fairly wholecloth, actually, but we can discuss that later.

3) I do like the male Cha idea, but let me think on that. The plateaus don't make a good game, though, and are descriptive. Rand is multiclass armsman/blademaster/channeler, so of course he has plateaus.

4) I've been doing the Woodsman over fairly well, and I'll get it up when I do up the group.


5) Playtesting: let's get the ideas flowing on this thread, and we can make up OUR OWN CHARACTERS! woo! Dibs on a male channeler!

6) Let's all keep to the original d20 game as a point of reference BEFORE we go all E6. E6 is based on a 20-level spread, but assumes humans have a limited place in it.

Okay, more later. Please hang on, I'll post what I have when I can, and start the social group on Wednesday. Post here if you want me to PM you directly.

 

[fireinthedust]

Social Group created!

WHEEL OF TIME PATHFINDER SOCIAL GROUP!

 

[fireinthedust]

I've been thinking on this for a while, and have decided to do that same approach: write down how it is in the books, and build the system up from there instead.

This, of course, requires me to pretty much build from scratch instead of doing a conversion from the existing d20 book. Which is fine, I liked the idea of E6 for this better anyways, which would require throwing out the existing progressions.

Before I ask anything else: have you ever read the d20 Wheel of Time book by WotC? It came out waaaay early in 3e.

I'm impressed by your attempts and your insights. You'd be interested by this book. Wikipedia entry and [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Roleplaying-Introduction-Jordan-Robert/dp/0786919965]The Amazon listing[/ame]

Here's some of the things I've looked at:

- The One Power seems like it's a combination of spontaneous and learned casting, using psionics (yes, a sorcerer/wizard/psion combination).
Basically, you cast any spell you know, and you can learn any number of spells, and you use points to fuel casting.

Done.

- The current era, aside from a few channelers (Rand, Forsaken, a few of the girls, etc), is fairly "low magic". This can be modeled well with simply having weaves require to be learned, and thus no one there to train means no new weaves (automatic limit).
Sure, there's experimentation and witnessing a Forsaken do something that's from the Age of Legends, but that's rare, and still strictly limited. No Jo Cars and influx of ter'angreal, nor weapons made from the One Power.

Done.

- Focusing your mind should be a trained skill thing. It should be the skill that is used to access the one power. It should also be the skill used for advanced combat stuff (blademasters, sword forms, and generally good combatants, such as a few archers I recall reading about).
This lets non-channelers get some nice things beyond the mundane equipment and abilities.
Remember, ignoring the effects of weather and environment is specifically called out as not a use of the One Power, but "a trick of the mind". Note also Lan's use of "ko'di". Tam's Flame and Void, etc.

Meh, not sure if this is a good idea in-game. Advanced combat stuff is based on a feat, and the F&V description is more why Rand can do it and normals can't.

- Since an Aes Sedai can be trained as a Wise One, and vice versa, and various other permutations... it really doesn't make sense to have different classes for channeling, even with prestige classes.
What makes more sense is a single class for progression, and what you get from the training is what weaves you know, feats to access, etc.
A wilder's block feels as much as roleplaying restriction as an Aes Sedai not being able to lie. This can change based on roleplaying events (learning to break through the block, or being released from the Oath Rod, etc).
They each carry their own set of roleplaying effects (can lie and attack people with the power, and Aes Sedai making even Kings come to heel).

In the book it's a full-round action to embrace the source. This is *huge* in an RPG, considering surprise rounds and instant-reactions.

Wilders vs. Initiates is the class division. Wilders have a block they can take a feat to ignore. They need to be in the right mood, one they have to design into their characters at cration (ie: sad, afraid, angry, happy, etc.) I don't know if it works in-game.

- The biggest difference in channeling is between the sexes. I really like the idea of women using Wisdom for most of their stat effects on channeling (except the skill the stuff), while men using Charisma for most of their channeling.
Women having to respond to the One Power, guiding it through letting it flow.. while men grasping the One Power and forcing it to do what they want, on that edge of disaster.
Also, the progression of power points might be different, since women are said to have a steady increase in power until they've fully grown into their ability, while males tend to have plateaus and growth spurts.

Intriguing! In the d20 book, Initiates use Int, while Wilders use Cha. Both rely on Wisdom.

However, you get bonus weaves based on both high Int/Cha and high Wisdom, so if you have two high stats you get two sets of bonus weaves.

I like the idea of Cha for Men and Wis for women. It makes a certain amount of sense, especially with the Yin/Yang division (ie: male mojo vs. women's intuition).

- The way that channeling is limited (and therefore kept at a somewhat even footing with the normals), is that you have to grasp the one power, and then build up to holding the amount of power you want, like turning on a faucet.
If this is limited by time (with ways of making it go faster, like quickdraw for casters essentially), then a channeler can take time to respond with the One Power to a situation. Arrows being something Aes Sedai fear quite justifiably.

As mentioned above, Embracing the source is a full-round action.

Also, there's mention of "channeling sickness", something wilders tend to get, that happens from holding too much one power for too long, over a long period. This is disincentive to just walk around holding the one power all day long, every day. That and the taint for males (or saa with the True Power).

Yeah, good question. Should work like addicitons, maybe? Will save? Fort save?

That, and some shadowspawn (and other evil things), as well as other channelers, can sense someone holding the one power... which can be a very, very bad thing when it comes to Forsaken or Gholams/Myrdraal.

Yep, easily done. I have notes on Fades.

- Affinities and Talents all seem like things you can grow into, so they should be something you can pick up with feats later on in the game.
I'm still not sure if weaves should be separated into Talents, because it seems like there just some weaves that anyone can use (and not just 0 level ones).
Like.. while people might have a "talent" for Healing, and not having that talent means only access to 0th or 1st level stuff, things like Bonding a Warder doesn't really ever get referenced as "I don't have a Talent at Conjunction, so I can't really bond a warder".
It seems to better suit a Talent as a "bonus" thing (since most talents are one single thing anyways, like Delving), and some also grant access to extra weaves, or more powerful versions of weaves.

In the book they say that after a certain level you can't learn weaves outside your Talent. There are piles of feats, and it's a feat to pick up each one, especially in Pathfinder: every other level, plus bonus channeler feats, and a PC is going to have enough Talents to do their job.
Talents are basically groups of Weaves, some with a bunch of weaves (elementalism) and others with only one (Balefire). Think like schools of magic, but more broad AND more specific than the schools of magic in D&D. Seemingly arbitrary, but not bad. You have a feat for a talent, you can learn and cast those weaves.
The lower levels, though, you don't need a talent to cast those weaves. Makes sense, really.

Affinities: you pick one, and can get more with feats. If you have one, and a weave has that element, you cast it normally. If you have an affinity for all the elements needed for a weave, you cast it one level lower than it's listed (ie: if you have Spirit and Fire, and you need Spirit and Fire, you cast a 3rd level weave as if it were 2nd level). If you have none of the affinities, it counts as a level higher (ie: if you have Spirit and Fire, but it needs Water and Earth, a 3rd level weave counts as a 4th level weave).

- An idea we've been bouncing around with ta'veren is action points. Action points have always been a method of player narrative control, which is ultimately what ta'veren area.
A sidebar with different options would probably be best.
I personally like the idea of the DM deciding a particular person (or set of people) being ta'veren for the moment, and gives them some action points to use.
I also like the idea of a player being able to use an action point at any time, but doing so when you don't have any means the DM pulls a pathfinder plot card and uses a negative effect against you at some point later on.
This fits the game style (more storyteller), and the setting involved.

PCs are Ta'veren by default, but in the books the three boys are specifically them.

They d20 book has Rand, Mat and Perring with bonus feats. Like, a lot of them, such that they're beyond even PCs: Rand has all affinities and loads of Talents. Mat has bonus re-rolls. etc.