Can you solve this mystery? (My players stay out!)

[Piratecat]

I would simply cast Comprehend Language, or if available, a higher divination spell on it and read it normally.

It's Hollow Earth Expedition, Derren. No magic.

 

[jdrakeh]

It's Hollow Earth Expedition, Derren. No magic.

Rather than being filed with the 'adventures' tag, maybe this should be filed under the 'non-d20' tag -- I think that may alleviate a lot of the confusion here

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

*

Spoiler

One twelfth, a day. One ninth, a world undersea. The first twelve indivisible. Here lies the pathway to...

*

Assuming this is the correct translation of the symbols my initial thinking takes me to

Spoiler

the names of the days, months, astrological signs, and the planets. The twelve months of the year in the modern calendar are given names of Roman origin. The days of the weeks are largely Norse in origin (Tyr, Wodin, Thor, Freya = Teusday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday) except for Saturday/Saturn which would also be Roman. And of course the X is near to Italy so...

The mention of the planets got me then thinking that a number of (what used to be 9)planets are also named after Roman gods - Saturn obviously, Jupiter, Pluto (god of the underworld=Hollow Earth?) and of course Neptune - god of the sea.

I suggest then that this could mean that on a Saturday, when one of those planets (probably Neptune) is in a particular position in the sky the world undersea will be revealed/made accessible/whatever. It could possibly still be Saturn (and a few of Saturns moons have names of oceanic origin/connection though they are Greek and not Roman).

Edit - The most clever possibility would be that it is the date upon which Pluto (god of the underworld) crosses the orbit of Neptune (god of the sea).

I can't really figure what "twelve indivisible" is suggesting though.

 

[sinecure]

What did you use to make the map?

 

[Jack7]

but the Mediterranean is a sea.

Well, you got me there. I guess I wasn't paying attention to what I was writing...

Or it could be an accurate representation of what the world looked like at the time of the map's creation. I'm somewhat amazed that this possibility has escaped everybody thus far. After all, we're dealing in lost civilizations and pulp adventure, here.

It didn't escape notice -

In other words the tablet is both a clue to what is relevant and is a device which by it's very nature dismisses those things which you cannot yet use to make any deductions about it's true nature. The map is not the rhetorical territory.

Therefore the only real evidence at hand is the tablet itself.
The tablet is itself.

Think in that way.

Dismiss at this point what you cannot yet know and instead concentrate on what is known.

In other words you have to use what you do know, not what you don't know.
It is resolvable in that fashion.

_____________________________________________________________________

Assuming that is Italy, where is the Atlantic Ocean and where is the rest of the Mediterranean Ocean?

And why do the land masses look like that?

__________________________________________________________________________

My immediate thought is that, for many ancient civilisations, the Mediterranean was the whole world (which they thought to be flat). The writing round the edge, cutting off the map, reinforces the idea that the map is not so much a representation of a specific area as it is of the whole world. The X, being at the centre of the map, therefore symbolises the middle of the world. And since we now know that the Earth is a globe, we're looking at the centre of that globe.

That's one possibility.

And the center of the globe is a good idea, psychologically speaking. From the view point of how the map-maker saw the world.

But, if the map is as it appears then the outlines of the map do not show extended ocean, or seas, but the fact that the limit of the map are bordered by land. In other rods many ancient maps speculated that the Atlantic ocean was at one end of the world and whatever other limits were assumed at the other (though some maps simply concluded at whatever terminus was actually known) this map implies that land, not sea or ocean surrounds the central areas of the map. That the interest area of the map is completely encircled by land, not water. Any map maker proceeding in either direction, even one who was making a map from rumor would know the stories of seas and oceans extending in either direction to unknown limits, not that the Mediterranean was bordered by the enclosing land-limits which seem to be displayed.

And in addition the landmasses, although resembling Italy and northern Africa, are recognizable, many are obvious variations, and show much more land and land area than is common nowadays and much less water than is common nowadays.

Now assuming the point of the game is the idea of a Hollow Earth (those are the operating parameters upon which the game functions), and assuming that the map is ancient and there is nor reason at all to suspect that topographical and oceanic conditions were the same at the time of the map (graphic image) construction, then at least one of the mysteries is why is there relative to today so little water and so much land?

Another assumption is that the X marks a locale to which the party should head, and it may or may not. But that's not an assumption anyone should automatically make and it is certainly no mystery geographically because it is obviously marked. But it is not marked on a land-mass, it is obviously marked at sea, and if there is an underlying landmass, like an island, then the landmass is so small that the X covers over it, and if the point were to find the land mass it marked, then the X occludes rather than illuminates the point being described. It would be better and more useful to exaggerate a small land mass than hide one beneath a point that gives no real clues as to the real locale.

Not many great civilizations are built in the sea per se, they need an operational base. Assuming they are human or human like of course.

So the X might mark a passage to this ancient civilization, but one that would by its' very nature be very difficult to reach unless it was near the surface (or instantly recognizable, that is a mighty vague clue as to real location), where men could reach it easily. Or it might mark a point where things from elsewhere were entering our world (from below or form some other means), or a navigational point, or a focal point, or a clue to a translation matrix, or some natural phenomenon that becomes evident upon approach, or any number of other things, including some biological organism or creatures. Or it could have been the spot of a big hole through which our seas and oceans drained into a "hollow earth" cavity and that would therefore account for the discrepancies between the landmasses and waters depicted in the map and those of our present era. The natural assumptions of the game demand that the idea of a hollow earth is reusable, that it is reachable (or else no adventure connected to it) and that some sort of intercourse or traffic occurred as a result, in at least one point in time. And in resolving any conundrum you always have to begin with the natural and most important parameters outlining whatever problem you are addressing. Regardless though, if there is a point of intercourse, then it will not likely be the obvious one in the obvious way.

But given this is an ancient map and that obvious geological changes have occurred since then and now then the chances of discovering what it is, no matter what it is, without further help seem to be slim. But that is not really our problem, our problem as originally construed is simply "what is the mystery central to the game as associated with the agency of this tablet?"

There are several possible mysteries associated with the tablet and the writing, though I suspect the writing is not germane to what the real mystery is or Nareau would have at least provided some clues as to what the langue is, or from what it derives, or something like that. As I said it is obviously not a modern langue (unless a forgery) and not enough clues were provided to decipher or translate it. And we do not know if the player will be doing the translation or the character will be, though we do know it is the character who has a background in ancient languages (we know nothing about the player's capabilities, other than some are smart), so it is translatable at least in game terms by a familiarity with ancient leagues and with some common alphabet (though this could mean a real alphabet or was just a term of convenience Nareau was using to make a point.) But since Nareau did not explain what language, alphabet or what he meant by these terms, it is very unlikely that the script is the real mystery or even the real clue to the real mystery, or he would have given us that information. Because how can he expect us to understand the mystery if we have less information than his players have and he expects them to find it difficult, perhaps even too difficult? So the script is not germane to the mystery per se. (the script cannot possibly translate directly into English unless the script is either a fake and forgery and added later as a code that can translate directly into English, or it is an in-game trick. That is, the symbols really represent an ancient script, as they would in real life, but for benefit of the players the symbols magically translate straight into English once you recognize the alphabet and don't have to fool with foreign words, letters, phrases, etc. For game purposes you don't have to translate anything but the alphabet, but in real life you would have to translate the real language, not just the alphabet. A hieroglyphic bee would not be an English "B.") So assuming the script does not magically transliterate or that it is not an encoded forgery then the nature of the mystery(s) lie elsewhere.

However the obvious, or one of them, graphic mystery is, where is all of the water? (And with less water more land is exposed.)

That is of course assuming this is Italy at some different point in time. The image could be in obverse and what we take as water actually be land, but by the way it is carved it does appear the water level lies below the land and so it does resemble Italy.

But my first questions would be, why does the world look different and what does that mean and how did it get that way and who represented it that way and for what purposes?


As for the script (and I think I know what it is and what it is doing relative to the tablet as a whole), which is obviously fashioned in three sections of encircling script, and as for the tablet itself, both are circular. And look at the break pattern. That is not a natural break pattern for most any kind of stone.

It was deliberately split in that way and that tells you other things too.
Among other things that it was split to be preserved and reassembled. It was not an accident.

 

[SPoD]

*

Spoiler

One twelfth, a day. One ninth, a world undersea. The first twelve indivisible. Here lies the pathway to...

*

Assuming this is the correct translation of the symbols my initial thinking takes me to

Spoiler

the names of the days, months, astrological signs, and the planets. The twelve months of the year in the modern calendar are given names of Roman origin. The days of the weeks are largely Norse in origin (Tyr, Wodin, Thor, Freya = Teusday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday) except for Saturday/Saturn which would also be Roman. And of course the X is near to Italy so...

The mention of the planets got me then thinking that a number of (what used to be 9)planets are also named after Roman gods - Saturn obviously, Jupiter, Pluto (god of the underworld=Hollow Earth?) and of course Neptune - god of the sea.

I suggest then that this could mean that on a Saturday, when one of those planets (probably Neptune) is in a particular position in the sky the world undersea will be revealed/made accessible/whatever. It could possibly still be Saturn (and a few of Saturns moons have names of oceanic origin/connection though they are Greek and not Roman).

Edit - The most clever possibility would be that it is the date upon which Pluto (god of the underworld) crosses the orbit of Neptune (god of the sea).

I can't really figure what "twelve indivisible" is suggesting though.

Ah, OK. How about this:

Spoiler

"One twelfth, a day." Or in other words, one month (one of 12) that is also a day name. A scan of the months of the year on Wikipedia reveals that no month is named after the same person/god as a day of the week--in English. However, March is named for Mars (obviously), and Tuesday is named for Tyr--and Tyr is the Norse equivilent of Mars. Further, in Romance languages, Tuesday *IS* named for Mars--"Martis" in Latin, "mardi" in French, etc. So the month that is also a day is March.

"One ninth, a world undersea." Man in the Funny Hat nailed this one: One of nine planets that is a world undersea: Neptune. Now, there would be some question of why an ancient civilization would think of Neptune as a world undersea--it wasn't named for a sea god until 1613, and there's no observable evidence from the ground that it's any more undersea than any other planet. However, if we're willing to assume that this ancient civilization was advanced enough to observe Neptune long before there were proper telescopes that were powerful enough to do so, then Neptune fits the bill here perfectly.

"The first twelve indivisible." I think this refers to the first twelve hours of the day. Unlike the other cultural uses of the number 12, this is the only one I can think of that has a FIRST 12 and a second 12. Of course, it might also be intended to read, "The first, twelve indivisible." But then I have no idea.

So if it were my character, I would head to the X in March, in the morning, when Neptune was ascendant. (I don't know how I would see Neptune, but still.)

 

[jmucchiello]

Figuring it out as a player should get you bonus points. When I've done this the 'puzzle' has always been solved by the player of a brain dead meat machine. Presumably, Grok the illiterate orc barbarian had a brainwave and explained it all despite having a personal vocabulary of 52 words (inc. 7 for beer and 12 for beer & sex).

Whenever the game exits to the players solving a puzzle OOC, I always suspend the player to character relationship. The puzzle is solved out of character. When you return to IC, the 23 Int Wizard DID solve the puzzle. Regardless of whether it was the wizard's player or the player running the 8 Int Fighter who actually solved the riddle/puzzle.

This also works when you have the player whose knowledge of tactics is nil playing the great leader of men. So what if the planning session is dominated by ideas tossed around by the druid's player and the wizard's player. In the game world, it was the leader who came up with the plan.

 

[Nareau]

Wow! Lots of excellent feedback. I'll need to tackle this one bit at a time...

I'll note that even when cool and authentic (like this one is), in my experience these sort of puzzles are absolute death on campaign momentum.

That's certainly something I'm concerned about. However, I know Daniel is really good at this kind of thing. I think that by handing them the pieces (printouts mounted to foam core), they'll have more fun being able to physically interact with them. And giving them out over several weeks means it's not a game-stopper; rather, they can fiddle with it a bit each week until it's figured out.

But it's a point well taken. I may go ahead and give them a couple of the letters ("Hey, this Nazi had a book in his pack! It looks like they were trying to translate the same language. They seem to have figured out a few of the letters...") Doing so should speed up the character substitution part of things.

You cannot solve the writing based upon the information provided in this thread.

You're absolutely right. I wanted to see if the first leaps of logic required was one anybody was likely to make (the letter substitution, and recognition of the Mediterranean.)

The writing is in an ancient language, because the tablet is ancient (or that is how it has been described).
Therefore it will not transliterate directly into English or any present cipher, code, or crypt assuming one was used.

You're totally right. The idea I have to explain that problem goes something like this:
In "reality," the tablet is written in ancient Sumerian using the Atlantean alphabet (which is a derivative of Venusian...but that's not relevant to the issue at hand. ). The PC can read Sumerian as well as they can English, so I've taken that bit of the translation out of things.

Here's how I'll present it to the player: "Your character can read ancient Sumerian. This writing looks a lot like an archaic form of cuneiform, and the stone and carving techniques are also very similar to that era and civilization. However, the alphabet isn't one your character recognizes. You think if you can untangle the alphabet, the words will likely be Sumerian, and then it's an easy translation to English."

I know that's a little hokey. But this game is supposed to be about mystery and awesomeness, not logic. All my players know this, and are prepared to do some belief-suspending.

You also don't know where the fragments were discovered, how they were discovered, by whom, or why, so at this point you absolutely cannot draw any real contextually relevant information that would by association help to decipher anything other than what is obviously apparent.

Don't worry--much of this information will be presented in the campaign. Depending on how totally obscure you guys think it is here, I'll give more or fewer clues about the context of the tablets.

I think I'd just rent a boat and head west from Rome looking for a large X floating in the sea.

Unfortunately, you'd be out there a long time. Unless the fascists decided to blow you to smithereens.

Very impressed with your faux stone. How did you make it?

Thanks! I found a tutorial online for making stone textures in Photoshop. So I can't really take too much credit. Although the font is original. If you're interested, you're welcome to download it here:
http://www.the5thcircle.com/hex/atlantean.ttf

My only issue with this sort of puzzle is really game logic. The party gets the various pieces. We put them together and then the players _not the characters_ have to figure it out? I don't see why my 19 int mage doesn't just make a roll when we have most of the pieces and you tell me or not.

I agree, and I know some players would much rather just roll some dice to figure stuff out. If the players think this is a dumb puzzle they don't want to deal with, I'll probably let them roll to get loads of hints, and possibly just roll to solve it. Or I might just ditch the "puzzle" aspect of it altogether, and go ahead and let them kill some Nazis and steal their research.

The map, although looks like Italy and the area around it, is not because the coast line to the west does not flow into France, but some type of bay.

Hrm. OK, sounds like the map needs work. It looks like that simply because the artist didn't have enough room on the tablet to depict the whole world. I'll see if I can figure out how to indicate "this is the end of the map, not another coast".

It's late at night, some of the symbols are hard to read, and I had to guess at the punctuation, but here's what I come up with:

Wow! I'm seriously impressed. That's exactly correct. Except for the punctuation. It should be:
"One twelfth a day. One ninth a world, undersea. The first twelve indivisible. Here lies the pathway to"
I'm likely to change the text before it comes up in the campaign. If I can fit it all, I'm thinking it will fully read:
One twelfth a day from Eden. One ninth a world from the middle. Speak the first twelve indivisible to open the undersea gate to Atlantis.

OK, now that we've got that part out of the way, here are the "stage two" clues that the PCs will uncover:
Eden is commonly believed to have lain between the Tigres and Euphrates rivers. It's possible the PCs will know the exact location of Eden by the time the get the last piece.
The "first twelve indivisible" will refer to a numeric code.
The PCs need to retrieve a special submarine from the Italian navy to find it.

Thanks for all the great advice! I'm thinking it's solvable, but may be too convoluted to actually be fun. If y'all have any ideas on how to make it more interesting/fun, I'd love to hear those too.

Nareau

 

[Woas]

Wait, I don't get it. How did Deset Gled translate it? Is it just letter substitution afterall?

 

[Hypersmurf]

The PCs need to retrieve a special submarine from the Italian navy to find it.

Or Walt Disney!

Wait, I don't get it. How did Deset Gled translate it? Is it just letter substitution afterall?

Right.

Let's say you hand your D&D players a handout depicting the diary page they just found in the possession of the evil merchant in town.

The handout is handwritten and has a parchment texture... but it's written in English, right? The theory is that even though the characters see a page written in Common, not English, the players see a page written in English. Just like all the Russians in Enemy at the Gate speak English, since the movie was made for an English-speaking audience. We know they're "actually" speaking Russian; we accept the cinematic device for the sake of convenience.

Similarly, the tablet the PCs see doesn't have 26 different symbols that map into 26 different English letters making up a bunch of English words. It has [N] different symbols that map into [N] different Sumerian cuneiform symbols making up a bunch of Sumerian words. The tablet the players see isn't the same tablet the PCs see; it's a representation of the tablet using that same cinematic device.

-Hyp.