Can you "Take 20" to Hide?

[airwalkrr]

How many Hide checks did you make? In this case, one. Making that Hide check is what caused you to become hidden; it is also the Hide check that failed against this opponent.

The Hide check you failed is the Hide check that caused you to become hidden.

Well, at least I understand what you were trying to say here. I think you could have worded it more precisely though because I still think your original wording is misleading.

The point is that at one point, I was hidden. Whether I had to actually roll the check or not, I was hidden. I do not think there is any mechanical difference between rolling the check when you Hide versus when someone has a chance to Spot you unless you allow the player to know the result of the roll. I think in this case, the only reason the rules seem to lean towards making the roll when an observer has a chance to see you is that it eliminates the chance for you to retry a poor check; yet more evidence that you cannot, or at least are not supposed to be able to retry Hide checks normally.

Anyway, if I try to hide, then someone enters the room, that condition is immediately thrown into question until we determine the result of the Spot check. Had I not been hiding, there would be no need for a Spot check. The observer would simply see me automatically.

 

[pawsplay]

Unless the spotter stops looking.

-Hyp.

... re-establishing your ability to make a new Hide check. That means you are not making a continuous attempt to Hide, but simply hiding 19 times. You are disqualified from taking 20 by incurring a penalty for failure.

 

[Dheran]

This debate has gone on long enough that I'm not going to attempt to reply to any of the previous posts. Instead I'll start with my answer and try to justify it.

I don't think you can take 20 for a Hide check. The Hide vs. Spot opposed roll is dependent on the visual aspect presented in the direction of the person making the Spot attempt. If you think you've got everything hidden, but you don't have complete cover/concealment (i.e., there's a reason for you to try to Hide), a viewer might Spot you from an angle you haven't adequately prepared for. Even with a helper trying 20 times to Spot you for each 20 times you Hide (400 times the normal duration) you still won't cover all possible viewing situations. (You'll get a pretty good circumstance bonus for all that preparation time, of course.)

There is a penalty for a failed Hide check: you're seen. There is absolutely no guarantee that you'll be seen if you don't Hide; enemies may happen to miss visiting any of the places from which your location can be viewed. This is another good reason for not pre-rolling a Hide check. It's a meaningless mechanic unless opposed by a Spot check. Plus we really want to avoid the whole temporal stasis quagmire, where you're forced to remain unaltered in appearance for however long you need to wait, regardless of the heat buildup that's causing sweat to drip visibly off your brow and the over-full bladder that's making you squirm.

 

[Hussar]

I don't understand how the two are exclusive.



Remember, this was specifically in response to airwalkrr, under a persistent Hide check model where he ruled that the check is made when you attempt to go into hiding, and that check (already determined) is later opposed by the Spot check of a potential observer.

-Hyp.

Ah, now I got it. In other words, if you use the skill wrong, then you can take 20.

Honestly, Pawsplay has stated it better than me. You aren't actually taking 20, you are just hiding 20 different times.