Can you teach someone not to (bad) metagame - (or at least not be rude)

[chriton227]

Nut that's what I'm getting at. It isn't "miraculous", it is "living in a world where trolls exist". Assuming you know it is a troll (and I'd say that is roughly as difficult as knowing what a giraffe or a seal is, or a wolf or a bear) why is it so outlandish that one would have some sort of idea how to kill the things? Even someone who has never met a troll before. I've never met a bear, but I know that if you run from one, run downhill, because bears have a hard time doing that, or keep a big object like a tree or boulder between you and the bear, as they are less agile than humans and you can avoid their attempts to circle around to you (among other strategies). How is that a lot different from knowing "if a troll is trying to kill you, try to set it on fire, weapons don't work on those green things".

Where did you learn this about bears? Was it on TV? There is no TV in most D&D settings. In a book? The vast majority of the populace is commoners, who are illiterate. On the Internet? No Internet either. Maybe in school? What grade did your fighter graduate from? How about the smith down the lane, or the commoners working the fields? How about in your travels? How far from home do you think the average villager has traveled, in a world where caravans need guards to protect them from monsters and beasts? As recently as the last century, many people lived their entire lives without going more than a day's horse ride from where they were born (about 50 miles).

In our modern times, information is communicated with amazing ease. This isn't the case in many D&D settings. Even Eberron, with all its modern conveniences, isn't like modern times. The newspaper is distributed on the Lightning Rail, which moves a whopping 30 mph. It can take days if not weeks for the latest paper to arrive assuming you live near a LR station. If you don't it can easily be months. Books are expensive, because most are hand copied, and are very fragile. You can't order books through Amazon, they have to be hand carried between locations. Humidity, heat, insects, fire, and weather are all more significant threats to property that they would be in modern times.

Sages, Libraries, and Knowledge skills exist for just this reason. We cannot make assumptions on what the average person knows based on what we know of the modern world. We each have access to the equivalent experiences of several, if not dozens, well travelled adventurers, so we cannot say "I know this random trivia about bears, therefore my character knows that fact about trolls". I travelled about 800 miles this weekend, and spent a couple hours in the Smithsonian Natural History Museum this weekend. How long do you think it would take a 1st level fighter to experience as much as I did? It would have taken them about 5 weeks of travel just to cover the distance on foot, 2 1/2 weeks on a fast horse. How long would it take for a the same 1st level fighter to research as much about a topic as you can in 1 hour with Google and Wikipedia? Would they even survive the overland expedition to the nearest large city to even begin the research?

Living where you do, can you honestly say you would know what a seal or giraffe even is had you never had access to school, TV, the Internet, books, or travel of more than 50-100 miles from home?

 

[Felon]

Where did you learn this about bears? Was it on TV? There is no TV in most D&D settings. In a book? The vast majority of the populace is commoners, who are illiterate. On the Internet? No Internet either. Maybe in school? What grade did your fighter graduate from? How about the smith down the lane, or the commoners working the fields? How about in your travels? How far from home do you think the average villager has traveled, in a world where caravans need guards to protect them from monsters and beasts? As recently as the last century, many people lived their entire lives without going more than a day's horse ride from where they were born (about 50 miles).

OK, working from this line of thinking, you've not only eliminated character knowledge of bears, but you've eliminated their ability to become adventurers in the first place, because you posit that all a character can only draw from the same pool of knowledge that's available to the "average villager". How can one learn the art of magic or the ways or a ranger from the "smith down the lane"?

Heroes generally have access to superior resources than the average peasant, be it through an advantageous upbringing or pure happenstance. They're raised as part of a special caste, they find their way into the graces of a kindly mentor, and so forth.

And that's how they learn about bears.

 

[Crothian]

In a book? The vast majority of the populace is commoners, who are illiterate.

Commoners are not illiterate. Only Barbarians are.

 

[sniffles]

It seems like a lot of the problem is not the meta-gaming per se, it's the unwelcome interaction with the other players. In that case, I'd think you'd be better served by having them address the issue directly with the problem player. Start with a semi-polite 'Thanks, but I know what my character is going to do' and progress to 'I don't appreciate your trying to run my character for me -- butt out' if necessary. So long as he's not getting negative feedback from the 'beneficiary' of his superior gaming skills, he's going to continue.

After having read the description of what the player in question is doing, I agree with this assessment.

Even more annoying from my point of view is that the other players are expecting Don Tadow to be 'daddy' and make the problem player behave.

They need to grow up and handle their own problems. If this player's behavior is bothering them, they need to tell him, not ask the GM to handle it all.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Right... Put me in the camp of the "clear communication is key" people.

You're possibly going to have to be very explicit with this guy (or, at least, more explicit with the guy than you have been) about the behaviors that you are finding to be a problem. Your other players can be helpful in this regard, as well.

If your problem player starts to talk over someone else, let him know (or better yet, have that player let him know) that such behavior is unwelcome. "Its my turn, Bill, I think I can handle it myself. Shush."

If your problem player asks a question from an OOC perspective, let him know that such a question is really not appropriate for the type of game you are running. "That question is really not something that I can answer, Bill, because it is completely out of character."

If your problem player is whispering misinformation (or improperly gleaned information) to another of your players, let him know that his behavior will not be tolerated, or... again, have the offended player do so, "I don't want to buy any drugs from you! Leave me alone!"

If your problem player is otherwise acting out, let him know about those behaviors, as well. "Bill. That's not appropriate. Stop it."

You don't have to be mean about it, but you do need to be firm.

On the other hand... It seems like this player has invested considerable character resources into having his character be a smart, knowledgeable person. Perhaps you could keep in mind that this is what he's going for with his character and occassionally throw him a bone. "Bill, your knowledg-ey background and sage-like focus gives you the chance for a particular insight into this creature, make me a Knowledge (pulling information out of your butt) check."

Later
silver

 

[Felon]

Even more annoying from my point of view is that the other players are expecting Don Tadow to be 'daddy' and make the problem player behave. They need to grow up and handle their own problems. If this player's behavior is bothering them, they need to tell him, not ask the GM to handle it all.

It seems like a lot of the problem is not the meta-gaming per se, it's the unwelcome interaction with the other players. In that case, I'd think you'd be better served by having them address the issue directly with the problem player. Start with a semi-polite 'Thanks, but I know what my character is going to do' and progress to 'I don't appreciate your trying to run my character for me -- butt out' if necessary. So long as he's not getting negative feedback from the 'beneficiary' of his superior gaming skills, he's going to continue.

Let's take the word 'metagaming' out of the conversation.

Pretty much all stuff I iterated back on the first page. From everything I"m hearing Don say, this isn't about a player commiting some abstract faux pas of role-playing that falls under the ubiquitous label of "metagaming" so much as it is about a player who demands a lot of attention and uses player knowledge as a vehicle for hogging the spotlight.

I think Don fingers metagaming as the problem because he believes that if this guy stayed in-character and refrained from using player knowledge, he simply wouldn't have the opportunities to keep yapping. He'd be stuck in some room somewhere while another player has the floor. He'd have to wait for the DM to disclose information before he could take action.

But rest assured, if this guy has a compulsion to grandstand, he'll make every attempt to do it in-character if he has to. Address the constant need for attention, not the out-of-character commentary.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

In my experience it is a difficult thing to try and change. He may be a nice guy but if one person is upsetting the rest of your group it might be for the best if you just part ways. Otherwise you may find that some of your other players quit instead.

Olaf the Stout

 

[IcyCool]

Felon, the quote you list in post #66 isn't mine, it's sniffles. FYI.

 

[Storm Raven]

Where did you learn this about bears? Was it on TV? There is no TV in most D&D settings. In a book?

Camping. It was passed on via word of mouth. I later confirmed it by looking it up, but the information was passed on from an experienced camper to me. I suspect that, living in a rural farming village, or just living in a pre-technological society, this sort of word-of-mouth information about basic survival would be commonplace. read Guns, germs, and Steel some time. In it, the author discusses the massive wealth of knowledge about the flora dn fauna of their surroundings that the illiterate pre-industrial villagers he has lived with have displayed.

The vast majority of the populace is commoners, who are illiterate. On the Internet? No Internet either. Maybe in school? What grade did your fighter graduate from?

Per the rules in the PHB, the fighter graduated from a high enough grade to be able to read. So did the average commoner. I think you are imposing assumptions on the game that are not actually there.

How about the smith down the lane, or the commoners working the fields? How about in your travels? How far from home do you think the average villager has traveled, in a world where caravans need guards to protect them from monsters and beasts? As recently as the last century, many people lived their entire lives without going more than a day's horse ride from where they were born (about 50 miles).

You make a big deal out of this, and yet, when people deal with illiterate pre-industial people living in the world today, they turn out to be virtual walking encyclopedias concerning the flora and fauna surrounding them. When your everyday survival depends upon dealing with these sorts of issues on a regular basis, you learn them, and remember them.

In our modern times, information is communicated with amazing ease. This isn't the case in many D&D settings. Even Eberron, with all its modern conveniences, isn't like modern times. The newspaper is distributed on the Lightning Rail, which moves a whopping 30 mph. It can take days if not weeks for the latest paper to arrive assuming you live near a LR station. If you don't it can easily be months. Books are expensive, because most are hand copied, and are very fragile. You can't order books through Amazon, they have to be hand carried between locations. Humidity, heat, insects, fire, and weather are all more significant threats to property that they would be in modern times.

And you display your cultural insularity when you assume that the internet and books are the primary way that this sort of information would be handed down. The typical commoner probably knows more about the dangers in the world than are recorded in all the books in a D&D world.

Sages, Libraries, and Knowledge skills exist for just this reason. We cannot make assumptions on what the average person knows based on what we know of the modern world.

Good thing I'm not doing that then.

 

[pawsplay]

In regards to the original post, it would be like teaching someone not to metabolize calories. While you don't want a diet consisting of nothing but calorie food, for life to exist, you must consume food that contains them.

Without metagaming, any at all, you would be unable to frame a scene and resolve it. Without some outside understanding of what "should" happen, "roleplaying" would be at best an exposition of arbitrary actions, and even then, I would ask you why you were playing.

Character creation would be impossible, as would game world and adventure design. Also, there is a good chance any two PCs would simply never meet.