D&D 5E Can you use dueling and TWF at the same time? I think you can RAW.

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
Didn't some sage advice once state that it actually works with a shield in the other hand? It was intended for the swashbuckling empty offhand style, but technicaly only requires that there is no weapon in your other hand
I sure hope so, I had a Paladin who used that fighting style with a shield!
 

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ECMO3

Hero
I guess it works. Usually you don't go from throwing to melee in the same turn.

I did have a Sword Bard for whom this actually could have been relevant, since she was all about daggers and occasionally threw a regular dagger on the action to trigger the extra 10 feet of movement Sword Bards get for taking the attack action to close with one of her good magic daggers or shortswords for the offhand attack. And Sword Bards can choose the dueling fighting style.

But she took the two-weapon fighting style because she was all about daggers. A fighting style that for any creature with a strength or dexterity over 14 would be better in this scenario as well.

So yeah, I guess I'd allow the +2 as a consolation prize for making an offhand attack with the wrong fighting style under a rare set of circumstances.

So I have thrown weapons in melee quite a bit when I wanted my hands to be free for a reaction spell and did not have another bonus action I was using. It is at disadvantage but if you have nothing else you are using your bonus on it makes sense, especially if you have a damage rider like spirit shroud or Hex. This case is similar because you have the 2d6 Bugbear first attack. I never did it with another fighting style before though.
 

ECMO3

Hero
Yes, I believe this would work. There are some drawbacks, however:

1. Unless you're an 11th-level fighter, you do just as well or better by using the Two-Weapon Fighting Style. You could of course get both fighting styles, say using the Fighting Initiate feat; but then you're down a feat.

Except that I will never be using TWF except on the first turn of combat. The character I am building this for has many bonus actions available, they just won't generally put down this kind of extra damage (2d6+weapon) and those that come close will use a resource.


2. While this trick works well on the first round, it runs into problems if you try to repeat it. You have to close to melee for the off-hand attack; so even if you scoop up the thrown weapon again (with your free "object interaction"), subsequent throws will be at disadvantage unless you break contact, provoking an opportunity attack.
I am not going to repeat it, this is all about taking advantage of the 2d6 when I am higher than someone else in the initiative order. The character will use a single weapon after that, along with bonus action spells and actions.


To make it simpler, you could throw your left-hand weapon; then close to melee and attack with your right-hand weapon as your second regular attack; then attack again with your right-hand weapon as your bonus action attack. The latter two attacks would get the Dueling bonus. That leaves you with an "object interaction" to pick your left-hand weapon back up.
Once I have extra attack, yes. I don't know how the DM would rule about picking it up, especially if it hit. If it missed you need to figure out where it is.
 

ECMO3

Hero
Nope, surprise is completely irrelevant by this wording. If a creature is surprised, they still roll initiative and have a turn, they just can't take any actions or reactions until after that first turn. If they beat you on initiative, you wouldn't even get it against them if you surprised them. If it's worded that it works against someone who has taken an action (not turn), then you'd be correct.
Hmmm ... so you could surprise an enemy and still not get the extra 2d6?

That does nerf it quite a bit, and makes getting initiative bonuses even more important.

Luckily the DM I plan to play this build with rolls individual initiative for enemies. This means I might have to take an AOO in the first turn, but in larger fights there will almost always be someone lower than me in initiative.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Except that I will never be using TWF except on the first turn of combat. The character I am building this for has many bonus actions available, they just won't generally put down this kind of extra damage (2d6+weapon) and those that come close will use a resource.

I am not going to repeat it, this is all about taking advantage of the 2d6 when I am higher than someone else in the initiative order. The character will use a single weapon after that, along with bonus action spells and actions.
Ah--I misunderstood. I thought you were proposing this as a general strategy, rather than a very specific build where you want to make the maximum possible number of attacks on round 1, then go single-weapon the rest of the fight.

In that case, I agree, it works. It means you can't use a shield this combat (unless you spend an action to don one), but it's probably worth it if you can massacre an enemy on the first round.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Definately gaming the system. Intent of Dueling is to emulate swashbuckler style one-handed fighting. Styles should not be able to switched in the same round, but possibly from round to round. ("Why are you smiling?" "Because I am not left-handed")
Yet I would say the vast majority of fighters using dueling are going Sword and Board....why give up that AC when you don't have to and still get the damage bonus?
 


I would disallow. You can't use a bonus action you no longer qualify for. If you used your bonus action to throw a weapon you would no longer have two weapons and therefore would not qualify for a bonus action. Ergo you would have to use your attack action to throw the weapon and would get no bonus action attack. If you had two attacks you could throw a weapon and then make a duelling attack, but you would still not qualify for a bonus action attack.

Remember bonus actions do not exist independently. You only have a bonus action if you meet the requirements.
 


So why can't you make an attack with a weapon, bonus action attack with the throwable weapon in your off hand, and then throw it?
You can, if you have two attacks. But you can't get the +2 damage from duelling because you do not have a free hand/shield.

You could get the +2 damage from Thrown Weapon Fighting style though.
 


Dausuul

Legend
If you make a melee attack with it it does. If you throw it, it does not.
No--it has to be a melee weapon. It doesn't have to be a melee attack with that weapon.

It's silly that "attack with a melee weapon" and "melee weapon attack" are two different things, but that's how 5E is.
 



Hmmm ... so you could surprise an enemy and still not get the extra 2d6?

That does nerf it quite a bit, and makes getting initiative bonuses even more important.

Luckily the DM I plan to play this build with rolls individual initiative for enemies. This means I might have to take an AOO in the first turn, but in larger fights there will almost always be someone lower than me in initiative.
Yep. Grab alert.
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
You can, if you have two attacks. But you can't get the +2 damage from duelling because you do not have a free hand/shield.

You could get the +2 damage from Thrown Weapon Fighting style though.
Lol, I edited this post as fast as I made it, but I guess you saw it. It wasn't really relevant to what the OP was trying to do.

Ok, so, how about this. Take an attack action with the main hand weapon, drop it (or throw it if you have the attack available), then, since you satisfied the conditions for Two Weapon Fighting (by taking the attack action), then bonus action to attack with the off hand?
 




Reynard

Legend
There are two conditions: have two weapons equipped + take an attack action with one of them. Since you don't have two weapons equipped, no bonus action for you.

But you took the attack action with both weapons equipped. That would satisfy the requirement for the bonus action.

Now THIS is where the rules lawyering comes in. What is the definition of "is" and such like.
 

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