D&D 5E Can you use dueling and TWF at the same time? I think you can RAW.

ECMO3

Hero
I think you can.

I am looking at a Bugbear build and the 2d6 damage boost that comes in the first turn.

I think with dueling you can start a turn with a light thrown melee weapon in one hand and a light melee weapon in the other. Use the attack action to throw the thrown weapon then close and use TWF to attack with the other weapon and get the dueling damage bonus on the second weapon (but not your dex/strength bonus).

I think this works RAW.

TWF: "When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative. If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it."

So you take the attack action with the thrown weapon then the other weapon qualifies for a TWF bonus action attack even though you are now only holding one weapon

Now Dueling: "When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon."

Since you threw the thrown weapon already you are now holding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, so I think the bonus action attack gets the dueling damage bonus.

Once you have extra attack I think you could get 2 attacks with the melee weapon (one using Extra attack and one using TWF) and get the dueling bonus on both of those attacks. On a Bugbear you would also get +2d6 on each of these attacks if the opponent has not yet had a turn, which is an extra 6d6 damage once extra attack is online.
 
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For the first round, I don't see a problem throwing and then Dueling. But I would be really wary of any attempt to use both feats in any round after the first or with an extra attack. I'd have to really think about that and compare it to other combinations.

As others have said, I think you are trying to find a loophole in the rules and avoid the intent of the feats. Hence I would be very wary as a DM.
 




ECMO3

Hero
For the first round, I don't see a problem throwing and then Dueling. But I would be really wary of any attempt to use both feats in any round after the first or with an extra attack. I'd have to really think about that and compare it to other combinations.

As others have said, I think you are trying to find a loophole in the rules and avoid the intent of the feats. Hence I would be very wary as a DM.
TWF is not really a feat, anyone can do it and to be clear I am not using the TWF fighting style, the TWF attack I am making is without any dex/str bonus to the damage.

The Bugbear combination though gives it (and all the attacks the 1st turn) an extra 2d6 damage which is a big reason to use it and a reason to consider not even using a shield.
 
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ECMO3

Hero
Also the +2d6 only works once per combat. So yea, no +6d6 like you are hoping for.
That is not true any more. This was changed in Mordenkainen's Monsters of the Multiverse and under the current Bugbear it now works for all attacks against enemies who have not yet had a turn in combat. It also no longer requires surprise:

"Surprise Attack. If you hit a creature with an attack roll, the creature takes an extra 2d6 damage if it hasn’t taken a turn yet in the current combat."


You could actually get it for every attack for 2 turns if you both surprise an enemy and beat him in initiative, also you get the 2d6 on action surge, gloomstalker attack etc and on any reactions.

This change made Bugbears the best Alpha strike race available, there are videos online about builds using it. The key is though you need to win initiative or surprise an enemy to use it. That is tough to do reliably even if you have like a +10 initiative you are still not going to win all the time.
 
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You need both weapons in your hand during an attack to trigger TWF, so things get tricky once you have Extra Attack.

I suppose you could Attack+Dex+Duel, then Draw, then Throw+Dex, then Attack+Duel. You are not required to attack with the same weapon when using Extra Attack.
 
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I guess it works. Usually you don't go from throwing to melee in the same turn.

I did have a Sword Bard for whom this actually could have been relevant, since she was all about daggers and occasionally threw a regular dagger on the action to trigger the extra 10 feet of movement Sword Bards get for taking the attack action to close with one of her good magic daggers or shortswords for the offhand attack. And Sword Bards can choose the dueling fighting style.

But she took the two-weapon fighting style because she was all about daggers. A fighting style that for any creature with a strength or dexterity over 14 would be better in this scenario as well.

So yeah, I guess I'd allow the +2 as a consolation prize for making an offhand attack with the wrong fighting style under a rare set of circumstances.
 

Mirtek

Hero
Didn't some sage advice once state that it actually works with a shield in the other hand? It was intended for the swashbuckling empty offhand style, but technicaly only requires that there is no weapon in your other hand
 

Seems like a lot of extra work for a little bit of damage. I'd say eat the lack of duelist +2 for a round that is generating 2d6 per hit or just find a different way to use the ba for an attack.
 

it now works for all attacks against enemies who have not yet had a turn in combat.

You could actually get it for every attack for 2 turns if you both surprise an enemy and beat him in initiative
Nope, surprise is completely irrelevant by this wording. If a creature is surprised, they still roll initiative and have a turn, they just can't take any actions or reactions until after that first turn. If they beat you on initiative, you wouldn't even get it against them if you surprised them. If it's worded that it works against someone who has taken an action (not turn), then you'd be correct.
 

Dausuul

Legend
I think with dueling you can start a turn with a light thrown melee weapon in one hand and a light melee weapon in the other. Use the attack action to throw the thrown weapon then close and use TWF to attack with the other weapon and get the dueling damage bonus on the second weapon (but not your dex/strength bonus).
Yes, I believe this would work. There are some drawbacks, however:

1. Unless you're an 11th-level fighter, you do just as well or better by using the Two-Weapon Fighting Style. You could of course get both fighting styles, say using the Fighting Initiate feat; but then you're down a feat.

2. While this trick works well on the first round, it runs into problems if you try to repeat it. You have to close to melee for the off-hand attack; so even if you scoop up the thrown weapon again (with your free "object interaction"), subsequent throws will be at disadvantage unless you break contact, provoking an opportunity attack.

You need both weapons in your hand during an attack to trigger TWF, so things get tricky once you have Extra Attack.

I suppose you could Attack+Dex+Duel, then Draw, then Throw+Dex, then Attack+Duel. You are not required to attack with the same weapon when using Extra Attack.
To make it simpler, you could throw your left-hand weapon; then close to melee and attack with your right-hand weapon as your second regular attack; then attack again with your right-hand weapon as your bonus action attack. The latter two attacks would get the Dueling bonus. That leaves you with an "object interaction" to pick your left-hand weapon back up.
 
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That is not true any more. This was changed in Mordenkainen's Monsters of the Multiverse and under the current Bugbear it now works for all attacks against enemies who have not yet had a turn in combat. ...

This change made Bugbears the best Alpha strike race available, there are videos online about builds using it. The key is though you need to win initiative or surprise an enemy to use it. That is tough to do reliably even if you have like a +10 initiative you are still not going to win all the time.

The Bugbear has been updated. It's... scary. So the 6d6 is legit.
Huh, thanks. I got to shake my head a bit. Does not seem balanced to me at all. But hey, maybe it is?
 


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