D&D (2024) Thrown weapon and duelling fighting style.

[UngeheuerLich]

Question:
How would you read duelling fighting style?
Can you throw the weapon you are holding and still get the damage bonus?

Note that it was changed from wielding to holding. And it does not mention other hands.

So if we'd allow throwing and not enforcing the light weapon bonus action attack in the other hand, you could wear a shield in one hand, and still use duelling and get damage bonuses to all thrown weapon damage rolls.
Even if we enforce the bonus action attack with the off hand, you can draw it just before throwing it and after the other weapon was thrown. So again, the damage bonus applies to all attacks with thrown weapons...

So if we read it that way (I read it that way in 2014), thrown weapon fighting would be absolutely redundand, except when you stack both fighting styles.

And if you do, you can also stack it with two weapon fighting style for light weapons.

So either up to 5 attacks with 1d6+9 damage as a handaxe fighter.

Fun fact: only the first attack each round can be without advantage, because either you hit and proc vex or you miss and proc studied attacks.

So back to the originial question:
even if all I said above is not imbalanced at first glance, it seems counterintuitive to have a fighting style that is strictly* inferior to another one.

So is duelling fighting style restricted to melee attacks in 2024 even if it does not explicitely state it?

*I missed the melee weapon part. So thrown weapon fighting also works with darts while dueling does not. So it is not strictly inferior. Darts work also with archery. So you can stack +2 to hit with +2 damage. I am not sure this is worth a whole feat though.

 

[Oofta]

Relevant Fighting Style Feats

Archery
You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls you make with Ranged weapons.

Dueling
When you’re holding a Melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.

Thrown Weapon Fighting
When you hit with a ranged attack roll using a weapon that has the Thrown property, you gain a +2 bonus to the damage roll.

Okay, so one issue I have is that the definition of a melee vs ranged isn't really clear.

Range [bold added]
A Range weapon has a range in parentheses after the Ammunition or Thrown property. The range lists two numbers. The first is the weapon’s normal range in feet, and the second is the weapon’s long range. When attacking a target beyond normal range, you have Disadvantage on the attack roll. You can’t attack a target beyond the long range.

Then I went back to find the definition of melee and ranged and it states

Melee or Ranged. A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged. A Melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet, whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack at a greater distance.

Which isn't really cleared up
Thrown
If a weapon has the Thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack, and you can draw that weapon as part of the attack. If the weapon is a Melee weapon, use the same ability modifier for the attack and damage rolls that you use for a melee attack with that weapon.

So Thrown weapons such as daggers are considered ranged weapons since they have a range. But presumably they're also melee weapons although nothing is explicitly marked as melee. If all weapons that have the thrown property are both melee and range then you can use darts as a melee weapon ... which I guess you could except that the thrown property qualifies "if the weapon is a melee weapon".

In any case, this is making my head hurt.

Strict reading of the rules? By their definition a ranged weapon is any weapon that has a ranged listed. Doesn't matter if that range follows the Ammunition or Thrown property. The Archery fighting style just requires a ranged weapon, so anything with a range listed qualifies. That makes Thrown Weapon Fighting redundant and actually less flexible since the Archery fighting style includes ranged weapons with the loading or thrown property.

My ruling? No, you can't use the dueling fighting style to add to the damage of a ranged attack. Why? Because I don't want to have the stacking, even if I think that there is nothing in the rules that says it doesn't work. But my head hurts enough the way it is.

To put it another way, once you throw that dagger it is no longer a melee weapon, it is a ranged weapon and archery (or thrown weapon fighting) applies. If used in melee, the dueling fighting style applies to that attack.

Meanwhile it also means I see no reason you can apply Sharpshooter feat to thrown weapons.

 

[ezo]

Relevant Fighting Style Feats

Always useful to post the relevant info!

 

[ezo]

Question:
How would you read duelling fighting style?
Can you throw the weapon you are holding and still get the damage bonus?

So is duelling fighting style restricted to melee attacks in 2024 even if it does not explicitely state it?

Yes, dueling is only for melee attacks. If you throw the weapon, you are not holding it when you inflict damage. So, the feat doesn't apply.

Okay, so one issue I have is that the definition of a melee vs ranged isn't really clear.

I think it is pretty clear, although I don't like the way they did it. If a weapon has the ammunition or thrown property, it is a ranged weapon. I think what makes it unclear is the wording, of course, in Melee or Ranged.. "whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack at a greater distance." It should be "whereas a Ranged weapon can be used to attack at a greater distance," since we know you can use a ranged weapon to attack a creature within 5 feet.

Frankly, it is all clearer in 2014 IMO.

 

[Oofta]

Yes, dueling is only for melee attacks. If you throw the weapon, you are not holding it when you inflict damage. So, the feat doesn't apply.


I think it is pretty clear, although I don't like the way they did it. If a weapon has the ammunition or thrown property, it is a ranged weapon. I think what makes it unclear is the wording, of course, in Melee or Ranged.. "whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack at a greater distance." It should be "whereas a Ranged weapon can be used to attack at a greater distance," since we know you can use a ranged weapon to attack a creature within 5 feet.

Frankly, it is all clearer in 2014 IMO.

I'm not sure I have an issue if it weren't for the thrown weapon fighting feat. It would make more sense if the archery feat had been limited to ranged weapons with the loading property, which I may make a house rule if it ever comes up.

 

[ezo]

I'm not sure I have an issue if it weren't for the thrown weapon fighting feat. It would make more sense if the archery feat had been limited to ranged weapons with the loading property, which I may make a house rule if it ever comes up.

I agree the changes in some of the wording messes with things. If you compare the Ranged weapon property in 2024:

Range
A Range weapon has a range in parentheses after the Ammunition or Thrown property. The range lists two numbers. The first is the weapon’s normal range in feet, and the second is the weapon’s long range. When attacking a target beyond normal range, you have Disadvantage on the attack roll. You can’t attack a target beyond the long range.

to the original in 2014:

Range. A weapon that can be used to make a ranged attack has a range shown in parentheses after the ammunition or thrown property. The range lists two numbers. The first is the weapon's normal range in feet, and the second indicates the weapon's long range. When attacking a target beyond normal range, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. You can't attack a target beyond the weapon's long range.

Before, to be a "Ranged weapon" you had to be on the list of Ranged Weapons basically. Sage Advice clarified this in 2016, that a thrown weapon is still a melee weapon when you throw it. The intent was to allow the Archery style with darts, but not thrown melee weapons.

Now, however, simply having a range (giving either Ammo or Thrown properties) makes a weapon a "Ranged weapon" and it qualifies for the Archery style (feat, whatever...). So, the prior intent is completely out the window--intentionally or not?

Of course, this means they also had to specificy that an improvised weapon lacks the Thrown property when thrown, depsite having a range, to avoid using Archery with improvised thrown weapons.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I agree the changes in some of the wording messes with things. If you compare the Ranged weapon property in 2024:


to the original in 2014:

Before, to be a "Ranged weapon" you had to be on the list of Ranged Weapons basically. Sage Advice clarified this in 2016, that a thrown weapon is still a melee weapon when you throw it. The intent was to allow the Archery style with darts, but not thrown melee weapons.

Now, however, simply having a range (giving either Ammo or Thrown properties) makes a weapon a "Ranged weapon" and it qualifies for the Archery style (feat, whatever...). So, the prior intent is completely out the window--intentionally or not?

Of course, this means they also had to specificy that an improvised weapon lacks the Thrown property when thrown, depsite having a range, to avoid using Archery with improvised thrown weapons.

I think you have it backwards.

Every ranged weapon has a range.
But not every weapon that has a range is a ranged weapon.

Although, a melee weapon can also have a range in parentheses.

Actually readjng this section: it was better written in 2014.

The weapon header says, a melee weapon has a range of 5ft, otherwise it is a range weapon.

The thrown property allows a melee weapon to make ranged attack...

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Wait, we can finally use Archery with thrown weapons?

This is great news! And makes the Thrown fighting style super super niche, when you'd only ever pick it second.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Wait, we can finally use Archery with thrown weapons?

I don't think so.
But it is not clear. And actually it would take the dart's only niche away.

This is great news! And makes the Thrown fighting style super super niche, when you'd only ever pick it second.

Yes it would.

 

[Oofta]

I think you have it backwards.

Every ranged weapon has a range.
But not every weapon that has a range is a ranged weapon.

Although, a melee weapon can also have a range in parentheses.

Actually readjng this section: it was better written in 2014.

The weapon header says, a melee weapon has a range of 5ft, otherwise it is a range weapon.

The thrown property allows a melee weapon to make ranged attack...

Where does it say that? As I quoted above, the 2024 PHB, it states:

• A Range weapon has a range in parentheses after the Ammunition or Thrown property.

No limitation on being able to be used as a melee weapon. The only indication that something is a melee only weapon is that it lacks range. Logically we also know that anything with the loading property is also not a ranged weapon since you're hitting with the ammunition, not the weapon that launches the projectile.

If I missed something let me know, but the rules don't agree with you as far as I can tell. You can rule it that way of course.