Can't charge invisible opponents?

[MichaelH]

I understand the miss chance when you try to hit an invisible opponent. However, you cannot charge a square. You charge creatures. If you cannot see a creature, you cannot charge it.

We use squares on the grid to establish line of sight and line of effect, but this line of sight and effect is to a creature, not the squares. My character cannot actually see the squares, after all.

 

[Christian]

However, you cannot charge a square.

Why not? You can attack a square-why can't you charge one?

 

[0-hr]

You can attack a square. The problem is if you succeed, then you have hit the square. You cannot attack a square and hope to damage what is in the square (at least not with melee weapons).

If you could, what AC would you even be rolling against?

I think that, in this case, you'd need to do the plain old move and then attack. If you can't get there in a single move, then you can't attack this round.

 

[MichaelH]

Why not? You can attack a square-why can't you charge one?

You cannot attack a square. "Square" is a metagame term that helps us run a battle on a battlemat or grid. You attack a creature. When a creature is invisible, you may attack where you think he is, and this is subject to a 50% miss chance. What you cannot do according to the RAW is charge an invisible creature. IOW, you cannot charge to the square where you think he is and make an attack that is subject to the 50% miss chance. You need line of sight for a charge, and you don't have line of sight to an invisible creature. There is no such thing as line of sight to a "square."

 

[Endur]

I disagree. If you can see the path from where you are to where you want to swing, you can charge.

There is no such thing as line of sight to a "square."

 

[AuraSeer]

There is no such thing as line of sight to a "square."

In terms of plain English that's nonsense. If you're quoting a specific game rule, please cite it.

Game logic seems to require definition of LOS to an area. For example, I can attack a particular spot on the map with a flask of alchemist's fire. In order to throw accurately, I need to be able to see where I'm aiming. I must determine LOS to the target point, to check whether I suffer a miss chance.

 

[MichaelH]

Read the glossary definition of line of sight in the PH. It says that if you cannot see your target (because he is invisible or you are blind, for example) you do not have line of sight even if you can draw the unblocked imaginary line. Then read the charge rule that you cannot charge if you do not have line of sight. Seems fairly simple.

 

[Christian]

The point is, the rules are quite clear that you can't attack an invisible creature at all."You can't attack an opponent that has total concealment, although you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance ..." (PH 3.5 pg. 152) My question is: what makes you think that total concealment of an opponent prevents you from charging the point on the battlemap that you think he may be in, as long as you have line of sight to that square? The language in the Charge section is remarkably similar to that in the Ranged Attack definition on pg. 139: "With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at an target that is within the weapon's maximum range and in line of sight." Or do you think that you can't try to shoot invisible opponents either, because you don't have line of sight?

It's not specifically spelled out this way in the Total Concealment section, but the intent of the rules is pretty clear to me. If you have line of sight to a square but not to a potential enemy in the square, you can take any combat action you ordinarily would by targeting the square, subject to a 50% miss chance. The only exceptions would be certain magical effects that specifically target 'a creature'. But I can swing my sword, shoot my bow, charge, start a grapple, etc. 'into a square' to my heart's content.

 

[Christian]

Decided to append rather than edit: It does look like, under the letter of the rules, that you need line of sight to the square. This makes sense for a charge, but it looks like there is no mechanism for (eg.) firing a bow into the area of effect of an Obscuring Mist spell. You can't target a square because you don't have line of effect to any squares ... You'd think there should be some chance of hitting someone by pure chance. Not to mention that, even if you've pinpointed the location of the opponent with a good Listen check, you still can't target his square.

 

[Darklone]

By the rules:

You can charge at an invisible opponent, in case you can charge there at all. At least you can charge against the space where you think he is. How you know that he is there is another problem, but you still suffer all the abovementioned penalties.