D&D 5E Cantrip nerf (house rule brainstorm)

[auburn2]

OK. So which martial classes do you feel overshadow primary casters in the three pillars of the game, and what are their abilities that allow them to do so?

I don't think we are talking about 3 pillars here, we are talking about combat specifically I think. In combat Barbarians and Fighters, and especially barbarian-fighters overshadow full up primary casters for most of the levels where the game is played (1-12).

 

[Jaeger]

People that can cast cantrips have better things to do than use them for profit. You might run into the occasional wizard willing to cast mending to supplement his income, but that would be rare.

However, a few such people per petty kingdom still wildly changes the world. Mold Earth allows easy irrigation, fortification, foundational building, etc. Its pretty gnarly.

IMHO part of the problem with Debates about D&D and how Magic would effect the setting is that most every D&D setting is Gonzo worldbuilding nonsense. If you are looking for in-game verisimilitude, don't look for it in D&D.

5e Forgotten Realms is utter Nonsense Gonzo High-Fantasy. It make no sense. In fact, if you want a how-to guide for designing a fantasy world without verisimilitude; buy a forgotten realms setting book from any D&D edition.

D&D settings will never make sense due to the way D&D was designed. Gary and co. were just tossing in things they thought were cool and running with it. It was the first game of its kind, and they caught lightning in a bottle.

Settings for D&D were just a backdrop for the medieval/sword and sorcery/weird fantasy genre mishmash of magic, PC classes, and monsters that they threw together - the game was just not designed around a defined setting or genre.

Because of the need for D&D settings to have a place for everything in the players handbook., D&D settings will always be Nonsense Gonzo High-Fantasy.

And the utter lack of D&D's in-game setting verisimilitude doesn't matter one whit.

As it just so happens, millions of people Like playing their D&D in a nonsense gonzo high-fantasy setting.

Win-win.

Or that spellcasters are currently underpowered compare to pure martials in D&D as a whole?

What would be required to "correct the dial on the other spell design elements"?
I'm not sure what the next bit means. Are you saying that its like the casters saying the martials have to become become casters themselves?

Personally, I think that magic users always being compared to fighters when it comes to damage output is indicative of an underlying design assumption that should be addressed/changed if you really want to get rid of the quadratic wizard - linear fighter nature of D&D.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I don't think we are talking about 3 pillars here, we are talking about combat specifically I think. In combat Barbarians and Fighters, and especially barbarian-fighters overshadow full up primary casters for most of the levels where the game is played (1-12).

Unless all the classes are equal in each pillar separately, overall class balance needs to take the game as a whole into account. A disparity on one pillar is acceptable if it is adequately compensated for in the other pillars.

Which leads to the question as to whether you think it is acceptable if fighters and barbarians apparently edge out casters in combat in general, and possibly single-target at-will damage specifically.

Personally, I think that magic users always being compared to fighters when it comes to damage output is indicative of an underlying design assumption that should be addressed/changed if you really want to get rid of the quadratic wizard - linear fighter nature of D&D.

Indeed. But it looks like that disparity is being used to justify why casters, or their spells, are too weak compared to what martials are capable of in the game as a whole. And that opinion is interesting.

 

[dave2008]

@Esbee, has this been an issue in your games or do you not like the idea of cantrips? I ask because we play a low magic game and the idea of an unlimited type of magic, at will cantrips, bothered us. So we limited cantrips to be used a number of times per day equal to the characters proficiency bonus. However, in actual play I don't know that the restriction ever came up. In battle our wizard almost never uses cantrips and quickly stopped even considering damage type cantrips. So in practice the restriction we placed on cantrips never really comes up.

 

[dave2008]

So in your mind a wizard makeing 100 attacks with a staff and isn’t winded make more sense then one that uses chill touch 20 times and not be winded ?

Wouldn't that be 20 attacks with the staff and 20 chill touch?

 

[dave2008]

Instead they get to be useless most of the time?

Our wizard almost never uses cantrips and is anything but useless. he has plenty of magic to go around. Why would you even think that?

 

[Undrave]

Our wizard almost never uses cantrips and is anything but useless. he has plenty of magic to go around. Why would you even think that?

What level?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

IMHO part of the problem with Debates about D&D and how Magic would effect the setting is that most every D&D setting is Gonzo worldbuilding nonsense. If you are looking for in-game verisimilitude, don't look for it in D&D.

5e Forgotten Realms is utter Nonsense Gonzo High-Fantasy. It make no sense. In fact, if you want a how-to guide for designing a fantasy world without verisimilitude; buy a forgotten realms setting book from any D&D edition.

D&D settings will never make sense due to the way D&D was designed. Gary and co. were just tossing in things they thought were cool and running with it. It was the first game of its kind, and they caught lightning in a bottle.

Settings for D&D were just a backdrop for the medieval/sword and sorcery/weird fantasy genre mishmash of magic, PC classes, and monsters that they threw together - the game was just not designed around a defined setting or genre.

Because of the need for D&D settings to have a place for everything in the players handbook., D&D settings will always be Nonsense Gonzo High-Fantasy.

And the utter lack of D&D's in-game setting verisimilitude doesn't matter one whit.

As it just so happens, millions of people Like playing their D&D in a nonsense gonzo high-fantasy setting.

Win-win.

IME, people want to play in worlds that feel believable, actually.

And there is no reason that D&D worlds need to be what you describe them as, nor do I even agree that published D&D worlds are that.

I don’t see how your commentary in the above text adds anything to the discussion, frankly. It’s a drive-by pissing on of a discussion that you clearly don’t care about, and have only apathetic bad “hot take” drivel to contribute.

 

[Jaeger]

IME, people want to play in worlds that feel believable, actually.
....

Some do, sure. It is my preference.

But given the popularity of the 5e FR setting and the AP that people buy to play in it; Lack of believability is obviously not a deal breaker for the people WOTC is marketing 5e D&D to.

This is just the reality of the current situation.

... And there is no reason that D&D worlds need to be what you describe them as, nor do I even agree that published D&D worlds are that. ...

They don't need to be, but to make D&D's setting and system have more internal consistency and verisimilitude when it comes to the Forgotten Realms setting; It would require both a fundamental re-write of the spell lists, and a revision of the assumed power level magic in D&D has. Along with a corresponding re-write to the settings lore to reflect those changes.

The current D&D fanbase is invested in the lore/setting of 5e Forgotten Realms as-is.

I simply do not think such significant changes to both the game mechanics and setting lore in the name of greater believability and verisimilitude would meet an enthusiastic reception with the majority of the current fanbase.

I think that for this goal to be met a new setting would have to be written with corresponding adaptation of the rules system attached.

Similar to what was done with the 5e version of Adventures in Middle Earth.

...However, a few such people per petty kingdom still wildly changes the world. Mold Earth allows easy irrigation, fortification, foundational building, etc. Its pretty gnarly.

I think that you are absolutely correct on the point that you make here.

D&D has always done a poor job of accounting for the effects that it's magic system would actually have on the game world.

5e Forgotten Realms certainly does not pass this smell test. Nor does any other setting published for 5e by WOTC.

...I don’t see how your commentary in the above text adds anything to the discussion, frankly. It’s a drive-by pissing on of a discussion that you clearly don’t care about, and have only apathetic bad “hot take” drivel to contribute.

Yet you hit the reply button... Come on man!

You had to know I'd reply right back when you end with a zinger like that!

 

[dave2008]

What level?

I was about 90% sure that would be your reply. I almost added this to my initial response: They are 15th level now, but that has been pretty much true from about the beginning and definitely ever since 4th or 5th level.