D&D 5E Cantrip nerf (house rule brainstorm)

[Cap'n Kobold]

I think that you are absolutely correct on the point that you make here.

D&D has always done a poor job of accounting for the effects that it's magic system would actually have on the game world.

5e Forgotten Realms certainly does not pass this smell test. Nor does any other setting published for 5e by WOTC.

Caught some similar themed stuff here: http://keith-baker.com/firearms-in-eberron/

Paragraphs of text justifying why 'for reasons' the firearm equivalents in the setting are still not quite good enough to make fighting with bows and swords by PC's obsolete...

If he had just said: "Because D&D" it would have saved him a lot of typing.dd

So, you don't like it when settings seem locked in "medieval stasis" and don't take magic or other advancement into account?

. . . and then you don't like it when you find a setting that doesn't do this and the creator has explained why either?

What do you actually want?

 

[tetrasodium]

0

 

[Weiley31]

I still don't get the point or desire of nerfing/getting rid of Cantrips. They are one of the few great ideas, for Spellcasters, brought forth from 4E into 5E. Then again, I always hated the whole Crossbow Magic User thing once they ran out of spells

But to each their own.

 

[CleverNickName]

I still don't get the point of nerfing/getting rid of Cantrips. They are one of the few great ideas, for Spellcasters, brought forth from 4E into 5E. Then again, I always hated the whole Crossbow Magic User thing once they ran out of spells

But to each their own.

Part of it might be the story/game disconnect.

From a gamist perspective, every character needs an ability that can be used on every turn to deal [(base)(level)+(modifiers)](hit probability) damage every round. Fighters have swords, so mages need spells that act like swords.

From the storyteller perspective, the character is weaving the mysterious and arcane powers beyond mortal understanding--but are doing it so reliably and frequently that nobody even notices anymore.

D&D is a storytelling game, so it needs both perspectives. But while gamists probably love cantrips, storytellers probably don't.

 

[tetrasodium]

Going to take a couple good & valid disparate points I agree with and fork them into a different more interesting tangent than the roughly "x doesn't make sense" point they were arguing against

Firearms took quite a while to obsolete melee weapons and bows.
He also goes into detail on how DMs can use the setting conceit that industry is magical, rather than technological, and specifically how that might mean that the Eberron crossbow is much more advanced with magically crafted reloading mechanism and more powerful arms, or any number of other things, but none of it is necessary to make the setting believable.

.
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So, you don't like it when settings seem locked in "medieval stasis" and don't take magic or other advancement into account?

. . . and then you don't like it when you find a setting that doesn't do this and the creator has explained why either?

..
These two combined are a good example of why the equipment for 5e being so simplified down to basically just a die size and a true false tag like isheavy isafocus isfinesse etc is so bad for every setting other than FR. It's great that the entire contents of the three equipment tables (phb145/149/150) fits into the stuff you can buy off the rack almost anywhere in FR... if you run FR as written. That "great" starts falling apart if you are running a campaign in a game world where technology has advanced beyond the level of FRs cultural stasis crossbow because those old things are going to be readily available & just as far from state of the art military technology as whatever a t-16 was wen luke was shooting it at whomprats back home. Not only do those settings have dramatically more advanced tech levels at the high end state controlled military tech level, but we can stay with just the differences in crossbows for this so I'm going to.


You could probably take every individual improvement in that post Keith Baker made & make an equipment list rivaling those of games like shadowrun & rifts no doubt, but that's the extreme left out by the extreme at the other end reprsented by the core book providing for the needs of FR onlyin design that boils down to a die size. Setting like darksun(athas), eberron, spelljammer/planescape(sigil), or some hybridized ecclectic mix & match have some availability level of crossbowsmore technologically advanced than the PHB hand/light/heavy split allows & d6/d8/d10 with ranges of "plenty/more than plenty/way more than plenty" leaves little to no room for mechanically slotting those in between "starting gear" & "very magical +whatever" without a bunch of houserules rebuilding all sorts of simplified things just to make a place for variance. If you don't do that then when someone gets one of those advanced crossbows that is also +1 a "few" levels later in the campaign the only option is to make it +2 or more so those "few levels" need to be more like "many levels".

 

[Jaeger]

I’m flabbergasted.

I am too that you think such setting implications are anything less than gonzo fantasy. Vesuvius is an apples to oranges comparison.

I mean just one read through: Undermountain

The setting conceit of the undermountain itself is pure gonzo fantasy.

So, you don't like it when settings seem locked in "medieval stasis" and don't take magic or other advancement into account?

. . . and then you don't like it when you find a setting that doesn't do this and the creator has explained why either?

What do you actually want?

I never said anything about liking or not liking.

( I find most creators "explanations" to be dubious at best. Dudes should just say its gonzo fantasy, that would be just as good.)

Yes I have a preference, but I can play gonzo fantasy and have a good time. Just like I can play a pulp game that has the PC's travel to a hollow earth.

Totally unrealistic, but you can still have a good time playing the game!

 

[jmartkdr2]

Part of it might be the story/game disconnect.

From a gamist perspective, every character needs an ability that can be used on every turn to deal [(base)(level)+(modifiers)](hit probability) damage every round. Fighters have swords, so mages need spells that act like swords.

From the storyteller perspective, the character is weaving the mysterious and arcane powers beyond mortal understanding--but are doing it so reliably and frequently that nobody even notices anymore.

D&D is a storytelling game, so it needs both perspectives. But while gamists probably love cantrips, storytellers probably don't.

That sort-of assumes cantrips are bad for story, or at least neutral.

For a significant number of people, cantrips are just more on-theme than crossbows. Crossbows are a departure form the basic wizard tropes; you're diluting the character and making them less of a wizard.

 

[DnD Warlord]

Wouldn't that be 20 attacks with the staff and 20 chill touch?

Yea but I was trying to put as much benefit of the doubt on there side

 

[dave2008]

Yea but I was trying to put as much benefit of the doubt on there side

Well, I didn't follow closely enough to know which side you're on and which said "they" are on!

 

[dave2008]

I am too that you think such setting implications are anything less than gonzo fantasy. Vesuvius is an apples to oranges comparison.

I mean just one read through: Undermountain

The setting conceit of the undermountain itself is pure gonzo fantasy.




I never said anything about liking or not liking.

( I find most creators "explanations" to be dubious at best. Dudes should just say its gonzo fantasy, that would be just as good.)

Yes I have a preference, but I can play gonzo fantasy and have a good time. Just like I can play a pulp game that has the PC's travel to a hollow earth.

Totally unrealistic, but you can still have a good time playing the game!

You keep using the term "Gonzo Fantasy" like anyone should know what you mean when we clearly don't. What is your definition of Gonzo Fantasy, and what are the other options? Is it just Historical Fantasy and everything else is Gonzo Fantasy? What is the range here, what are the possibilities?