D&D 5E Cantrips, a Curious Thing

[Fanaelialae]

An Ice Knife cast as a 9th level spell would deal 1d10 +10d6 damage. It's only if you cast it at 1st level that it deals 1d10 + 2d6.

I think a reasonable explanation is that spells scale off of the energy put into them, whereas cantrips (requiring effectively no energy to function) instead scale in some other way; be it simply from long practice or through some ambient magical charge the accumulates based on the caster's level.

It's not really much different from how the paladin's lay on hands or smite (improved divine smite) scales with level but their spells don't (unless you spend a higher level spell slot). If casters lost their lower level spell slots when they gained higher level ones, they'd effectively function the same way. The ability to retain and use those low level slots is effectively a bonus for them, akin to if a paladin added a cumulative 5 * level to their lay on hands total, instead of just having a total of 5 * level.

 

[James Gasik]

An Ice Knife cast as a 9th level spell would deal 1d10 +10d6 damage. It's only if you cast it at 1st level that it deals 1d10 + 2d6.

I think a reasonable explanation is that spells scale off of the energy put into them, whereas cantrips (requiring effectively no energy to function) instead scale in some other way; be it simply from long practice or through some ambient magical charge the accumulates based on the caster's level.

It's not really much different from how the paladin's lay on hands or smite (improved divine smite) scales with level but their spells don't (unless you spend a higher level spell slot). If casters lost their lower level spell slots when they gained higher level ones, they'd effectively function the same way. The ability to retain and use those low level slots is effectively a bonus for them, akin to if a paladin added a cumulative 5 * level to their lay on hands total, instead of just having a total of 5 * level.

Which really again makes me wonder why there isn't some archetype that focuses exclusively on cantrips, gaining a wide array of them, and increasing their effectiveness through class features (as the Warlock and some Clerics can), and not even worry about spell slots.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Always, lol.

And yeah, I'm aware that not all game mechanics are meant to be described as they function, but it does lead to a narrative dissonance (and there are some gamers who get very hung up on form not matching function).

But as it stands, magic users have multiple "gas tanks". There's your first level spell tank, your second level tank, and so on. But occasionally you can cast a ritual with no fuel requirements (though it may require additives like expensive material components), and then there's cantrips, which apparently run on off the 13.5 to 15 volts your alternator produces for you just driving your car around. And this would be all well and good (if a bit strange, because one wonders why you don't just have a spell point system or something) if cantrips didn't become more efficient than some low level spells.

Personally, I'm leaning towards a theory that the model for how spellcasters gain spell slots and new powers is something set by the Gods of Magic (and the reason Warlocks break this model is because you're getting your power from an exploit, not an intentional mechanic). Some internal energy is consumed to cast spells (this is a big difference from earlier editions, which stated that almost all the energy of spells have an external power source, and that even casting a level 1 spell would leave a caster fatigued and gasping for breath).

But the magic that powers Cantrips and Rituals is derived from an external source, one that is limitless, but can only be tapped for a very specific amount of energy. What this source is can be left to the imagination; the Gods, the Weave, the "Plane of Magic", arcane energies leaking through cracks in the barrier between the planes and the outer realms, the dreams of a sleeping eldritch creature, whatever.

Maybe, it depends on your subscription package with the appropriate god of magic
So, once upon a time there was unmetered access to magic but that lead to varying levels of catastrophe (see Karsu's Folly and the like) so the gods of magic now restrict flow of magic.

 

[Stormonu]

Mechanically, it's a spin-off of the 4E "basic attack", and as the fighter gets additional attacks at higher level, to keep pace the cantrips need to scale as well (or so the designers believe).

Storywise, its similar to the fighter's attack. Older D&D described martial attacks as a number of swings over the course of a round, not a single swing. As the fighter got more experienced, not only could they more often land a telling blow (improved base attack/proficiency bonus), but they got more opportunities to land telling blows (extra attacks). Same with the spellcasters - perhaps the more damage comes from being more accurate, less waste of spell energy or simply hitting an opponent twice in a row (or holding the "beam" on them longer) rapidly as part of an attack. It's all part of being more "experienced" or "efficient" than the lower level folk.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I agree that there's inconsistency but I'd vier toward asking why other spells function differently than cantrips. Short answer is probably because it would add a lot of detail to the spells.

Other than that we might wonder why a 20th-level spell caster isn't any better at using a 1st-level slot to, say, cast sleep than a 1st-level caster.
We might wonder, for instance, with cure wounds, why your applied ability modifier does not improve with experience.

The answer here, though, is game balance. Back in 3e what you decribed is how it works. A fireball using a 3rd-level spell slot did Xd6 damage, where X is your level. Ergo, a 20-th level wizard did 20d6 damage to each enemy in a fireball.

Which is stupidly powerful and way more than even a 20th-level fighter can realistically do in a day. 5e has a problem where high-level wizards are too powerful compared to high-level fighters, but 3e this issue was way, way, way worse.

Letting spells get more powerful, and granting more powerful spells, and granting more spells per day means wizard growth isn't quadratic - it's actually a cube-based rate.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

Which really again makes me wonder why there isn't some archetype that focuses exclusively on cantrips, gaining a wide array of them, and increasing their effectiveness through class features (as the Warlock and some Clerics can), and not even worry about spell slots.

This is interesting because the warlock invocations and a high level wizard feature can turn low level spells into at will spells

 

[Cruentus]

Maybe, it depends on your subscription package with the appropriate god of magic
So, once upon a time there was unmetered access to magic but that lead to varying levels of catastrophe (see Karsu's Folly and the like) so the gods of magic now restrict flow of magic.

If this is the metered version of magic, holy moley, I can't imagine what it was like before....

Which really again makes me wonder why there isn't some archetype that focuses exclusively on cantrips, gaining a wide array of them, and increasing their effectiveness through class features (as the Warlock and some Clerics can), and not even worry about spell slots.

I've switched over my OSE Advanced game to the spell mechanics found in Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures. Some classes have access to Cantrips, Spells, or Rituals, or some combination of those.

Cantrips can be cast as often as you want, but if you fail a casting roll (casting is an INT or WIS check, depending on the Cantrip, roll under to successfully cast), you have a choice: the cantrip backfires in some way, OR you are unable to cast further that day. Cantrips include spells like Bless, Mage Light, Hex, Minor Illusion, Second Sight (see spirits). So fairly minor, but helpful.

Spells can be cast safely, but only 1 spell per character level. So a 5th level Mage casts 5 spells a day. These are the burning hands, abjuration (banishing), Darkness, Entanglement, Feather Fall, etc. and scale by level, obviously.

Rituals are castable at a rate of one hour casting time per level of the ritual. Bind Familiar, Goodberry (only heals), and Circle of Protection are level 1. Alter Self is level 4, Contagion is level 6, Resurrection is a level 10 ritual. These are the powerful and destructive spells or major magics that require concentration, etc.

All of the above need to be found by the Mage, and starting spells can be selected or generated using the character playbook. This system also wraps 'clerical', 'wizard', and 'druid' into the same Mage class. So wizards can cast cure wounds or summon animals, etc.

We're really liking how this system is playing out for us.

 

[greg kaye]

The answer here, though, is game balance. Back in 3e what you decribed is how it works. A fireball using a 3rd-level spell slot did Xd6 damage, where X is your level. Ergo, a 20-th level wizard did 20d6 damage to each enemy in a fireball.

Which is stupidly powerful and way more than even a 20th-level fighter can realistically do in a day. 5e has a problem where high-level wizards are too powerful compared to high-level fighters, but 3e this issue was way, way, way worse.

Letting spells get more powerful, and granting more powerful spells, and granting more spells per day means wizard growth isn't quadratic - it's actually a cube-based rate.

Well, that's an explanation.
Either that or high-level fighter are too weak compared to high-level wizards.
In general, I think high-level class progression should be more pronounced in strength gain to make staying with single classes more attractive in comparison to multiclassing.

 

[GMMichael]

lol wut...

An Ice Knife cast as a 9th level spell would deal 1d10 +10d6 damage. It's only if you cast it at 1st level that it deals 1d10 + 2d6.

I think a reasonable explanation is that spells scale off of the energy put into them, whereas cantrips (requiring effectively no energy to function) instead scale in some other way; be it simply from long practice or through some ambient magical charge the accumulates based on the caster's level.

The dissonance comes from seeing 1st-level spells as 1st-level spells. They're not. They're just spells that you can cast with as little as a 1st-level spell slot. As Fanaelialae points out, Ice Knife cast with a 9th level slot makes Fire Bolt almost look like a wasted turn (bonus action?).

I'm not sure it's a talent question either. Spell slot levels increase, more or less, with character/class levels. At level 11 your Fire Bolt gets better than it was at 10. When you get your next spell slot (from gaining more levels), Ice Knife gets better too.

So what's left is "why can I cast Fire Bolts all day, but only a handful of Ice Knives?" I won't try and offer the in-D&D-world answer, because that is a labyrinth I prefer to avoid. What I'd use, though, is: increasing innate magical power means those innate spells increase as well, reflecting the magic-user's real presence. Spell slot-using spells aren't innate power. Instead, they're the magic-user's effort to change reality (which is directly related to how many lunch-breaks the magic-user takes).

 

[mcmillan]

Which really again makes me wonder why there isn't some archetype that focuses exclusively on cantrips, gaining a wide array of them, and increasing their effectiveness through class features (as the Warlock and some Clerics can), and not even worry about spell slots.

Kobold Press has a "cantrip adept" subclass for wizards in Tome of Heroes. The features:
2nd level - extra cantrips and ability to cast cantrip as bonus action limited times per day
6th level - add mod damage to cantrip
10th - extend time of cantrip that imposes condition effects
14th - maximize damage from cantrip limited number of times