capping D&D at 5th level?

[rgard]

Clearly you and Jürgen Hubert are above fifth level...

Thanks, that puts me in good company then.

Playing GURPS and Phoenix Command were always cross class skills for me though.

Edit: I think I'll go post in the other systems forum here to ask if anybody ever played Phoenix Command for any length of time.

 

[HelloChristian]

If you use the old "name level" model, where hit dice stop accruing around 10th level (depending on class), it has a similar effect (although spellcasters keep getting new and higher-level spells, which may not be what you want).

I started playing in 1984 using 1e. Aspects of that game, such as the name levels you mentioned, have greatly influenced my style. I've struggled when DMing for people who expect to advance to 20th level. I disappoint them because I am very happy gaming in my personal sweet spot between levels 5-9.

I worry that when 4e comes - with its levels 1-30 - I will fall even further out of step.

 

[SlagMortar]

I'm above first level, no house cat can kill me! (Hurt me yes, kill never!) In fact everybody is at least fifth level. Proof: Not one human has been killed by going mana a mano with a house cat. That's based upon the house cat scale.

I'm tired of how often it is brought up that 1st level characters are too weak because it is possible for a house cat to kill one. The fact that house cats can damage humans in D&D is entirely an artifact of the rule that all attacks deal at least one damage no matter if penalties reduce the die roll to less than zero. Remove that rule and cats can't damage people. That rule was not made with the intention of accurately modeling house cats.

 

[Warren Okuma]

I'm tired of how often it is brought up that 1st level characters are too weak because it is possible for a house cat to kill one.

Commoners, have two hit points. DnD does not do reality well. It does not even attempt to do reality well. That is my point. Because of this, I find it fun.

The fact that house cats can damage humans in D&D is entirely an artifact of the rule that all attacks deal at least one damage no matter if penalties reduce the die roll to less than zero. Remove that rule and cats can't damage people. That rule was not made with the intention of accurately modeling house cats.

You are absolutely right. DnD was not made to model house cats at all.

How about the raven (MM page 278) scale? Or the Rat (MM page 278) scale? Both are capable of bringing a single 1st level commoner down. Oh, but you want to remove the rule that all attacks deal at least one point of damage. So...

Dog (MM page 271) gives a dog stats. A dog has six hit points and a commoner has 2. 20-50 lb. dog. Let's say rover is a 20 lb. dog. It has three times as much hit points as say... you at first level?

A brown bear (MM page 269) has 51 hit points. Do you think that a brown bear is say 25.5 times more hit points than you when you were first level?

Nor any other natural creature for that matter. It was made to model fantasy wargaming.

Clearly you are under 6th level.

 

[shilsen]

I <3 Warren Okuma!

 

[pallandrome]

See, I just never bought that most commoners were 1st level. I put young teens at 1st, older teens at 2nd-3rd, adults go up from there, depending on experience. Once you get to the low teen levels, you are essentially running nations. The high teen levels are for dealing with planetary/inter-planar threats.

See, all commoners are NOT equal. Old Bill the farmhand might have fought in the last war, and picked up a level of warrior. Miss Mary, the midwife-in-training, might have grabbed a level or two of adept.

Similarly, very few monsters are entirely unexperienced. I would EXPECT an ex-soldier farmer to be able to take out a single Orc on his first hunt.

 

[Klaus]

Let's take a look at some figures:

Long-Jump World Record: 8.95 meters = about 27 feet. Let's round that down to 25.
High-Jump World Record: 2.45 meters = about 8 feet.

Both are running jumps by D&D standards. So a human needs to make a DC 25 Jump check to match the world record. If you consider the rarity of it happening, let's assume the record holder, Mike Powell, rolled a 20. That means he has only a +5 modifier for his Jump check! That's 4 ranks and Str 12!

Compare that to a 1st-level human with 4 ranks in Jump, 15 Str and Skill Focus (Jump). He has Jump +9, meaning he can match and surpass the world record 5 times out of 20!

Even a 1st-level character is superhuman.

 

[Drowbane]

To be fair... nobody would take Skill Focus: Jump.

(say it isn't so!)

 

[WayneLigon]

You are absolutely right. DnD was not made to model house cats at all.

There's probably some better way of doing it. Housecats can't kill a person but the larger breeds of dogs can and do kill people. I have no problem with a bear having 25x my hit points. A bear can pretty much kill any non-gun-toting human it wants to and the human will basically be doing subdual damage to the bear.

The hint about Minion rules makes me think that lots of small animals will be relegated to Minion status and their entire stat block will be something like Housecat: Minion lvl 0 or Raven: Minion level 1, with the level being covered by a genric rule for that style of minion.

 

[Klaus]

There's probably some better way of doing it. Housecats can't kill a person but the larger breeds of dogs can and do kill people. I have no problem with a bear having 25x my hit points. A bear can pretty much kill any non-gun-toting human it wants to and the human will basically be doing subdual damage to the bear.

The hint about Minion rules makes me think that lots of small animals will be relegated to Minion status and their entire stat block will be something like Housecat: Minion lvl 0 or Raven: Minion level 1, with the level being covered by a genric rule for that style of minion.

Sean K Reynolds had a house rule in his site stating that Tiny creatures can only deal subdual damage to creatures two or more sizes larger than it, or something to that effect.