capping D&D at 5th level?

[Achan hiArusa]

That happens. I never got infected by my cat.

No, hit points are structural.

Say a 20th level barbarian has a Con 20 and 236 hit points. He gets paralyzed. The bad guys strip him out of his armor.

For entertainment they chop him with battleaxes (no coup de grace, since they are evil and want to make the experience last.) An hour later he dies. After the executioner having to make several DC 5 swim checks due to the blood flood.

See, structural points.

He does not lose blood instead, they torture him and let him live for a long time and only until they get to the end do they actually get to the meat.

 

[Imp]

It's not a fringe case. It's all over the place. Example....

1) Bull fighters. The defeat bulls without armor. What, these guys high level?
2) Rodeo Clowns. The deal with bulls. The mess with bulls, get tossed and live. Are they high level?
3) Knife hunters. My cousin and lots of people hunt wild boar with knives. Are they high level?
4) My friends brother is a bow hunter. He kills bears, deer, bears (including a brown bear which has 52 hit points in DnD) usually with one arrow. One arrow. Is he 11th level? I don't think so.
5) I have friends in the Sui Lum Pai that can break bricks and boards. What, are they 11th level monks?

DnD is not real. It does not even pretend to be real.

a) All over the place in things you never play out in the game. It's a game, not a world simulator.
b) Do you know how bullfighting works? It's not really like the Bugs Bunny cartoon. That bull is exhausted and has sustained multiple injuries by the time the matador even shows up. Boardbreaking: also rigged in favor of the breaker – but god knows the sunder rules don't need to be more complicated than they are, so eh.
c) Animal endurance is all over the place IRL, you have one bear that's got the courtesy to drop when hit by one single arrow, another that eats a Bonnie & Clyde level of gunfire while charging up and killing a guy. The solution to this problem is that hit points are an in-game fiction But,
d) I totally agree that the game does not even pretend to be real. It doesn't have to!

 

[Ry]

Not to take away from the arguments about realism, but a big reason I created E6 (and like low level caps) is because low-level play is fast. Fast play helps us have fun play, IMO.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Not to take away from the arguments about realism, but a big reason I created E6 (and like low level caps) is because low-level play is fast. Fast play helps us have fun play, IMO.

Actually, sometimes high level play is faster than low level. Just last night, I had a low-level encounter where the PCs and their kobold enemies spent over 50 rounds before the last PC standing barely managed to take out the fleeing kobold leader after the shaman had already fled. It took much longer than any high-level fight I've run: By high level, they have big guns that end fights. These guys did not yet, and it showed. Both PCs and enemies had much better AC than their attack bonuses, and their damage was lower than the expected healing from the CLW wand that changed hands several times in the fight. It would have taken much more than 51 rounds if not for my houserule that unconscious combatants take a full minute to awaken when healed above 0 (because the healing aspect would have allowed for even bigger backwards swings).

And I've played in games to level 20 and beyond. They run fast indeed. Then again, I've been told I'm good at improvising and running things quickly, so it could just be me.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

I think the discussion has shifted from whether or not all humans we know are low level to whether or not D&D simulates reality. All games to one extent or another try to simulate reality. D&D comes from wargames which themselves are simulations. The argument is, what is a 6th level character, what is a 10th level character, and so on? 1st to 5th level D&D is somewhat realistic, not perfectly, but somewhat. After that point it becomes "Heroic" and then "Superheroic." That is why more "realistic" games like Runequest came out because of the ridiculousness of what mid to high level D&D characters could do. But it can accomodate low level play (like the aforementioned Runequest), Mid-level play (like Shadowrun), and High-level play (like Exalted) all in the same game and is one of the few games that can do so.

 

[Warren Okuma]

1) Bull Fighters are dealt with above. And they do die. France was going to ban the sport because too many bullfighters died and they were professionals.

2) Rodeo Clowns have good tumble checks. And they too get injured or die.

3) and 4) more argue that the HD for Bears and Boars are inflated than to say that humans are underlevelled.

5) The amazing Randi without any training broke those same bricks and boards and was warned to be careful when transporting them because they could break by bouncing them in cars.

1) They die, but not very often.
2) Yes, the die, but very rarely.
3 4) I agree.
5) Cool. Must try that.

Most humans that deal with animals tend to be about 5th level on the DnD scale. Not first level.

 

[Warren Okuma]

I think the discussion has shifted from whether or not all humans we know are low level to whether or not D&D simulates reality. All games to one extent or another try to simulate reality. D&D comes from wargames which themselves are simulations. The argument is, what is a 6th level character, what is a 10th level character, and so on? 1st to 5th level D&D is somewhat realistic, not perfectly, but somewhat. After that point it becomes "Heroic" and then "Superheroic." That is why more "realistic" games like Runequest came out because of the ridiculousness of what mid to high level D&D characters could do. But it can accomodate low level play (like the aforementioned Runequest), Mid-level play (like Shadowrun), and High-level play (like Exalted) all in the same game and is one of the few games that can do so.

I disagree. First level characters are unrealistically weak on the "animal scale." 5th level is more realistic on the "animal scale."

 

[Achan hiArusa]

I disagree. First level characters are unrealistically weak on the "animal scale." 5th level is more realistic on the "animal scale."

Generally, my rule of thumb is Age/5 - 2 for the first 35 years of life and then 6th at 45, 7th at 60 and that's it for Modern Characters (or modern characters transported to a D&D world). Generally, if there is a reason for someone to be higher level (like a war or lots of intense training) then I would give a +1 or +2 level bonus. And this works for NPC classes in standard D&D. Fifteen year olds die in accidents that must adults would not get into, so I would have no problem with them being 1st level.

 

[Warren Okuma]

Generally, my rule of thumb is Age/5 - 2 for the first 35 years of life and then 6th at 45, 7th at 60 and that's it for Modern Characters (or modern characters transported to a D&D world). Generally, if there is a reason for someone to be higher level (like a war or lots of intense training) then I would give a +1 or +2 level bonus. And this works for NPC classes in standard D&D. Fifteen year olds die in accidents that must adults would not get into, so I would have no problem with them being 1st level.

Very nice.

My rule of thumb is as per the DMG, where most peasants are first level, have 2 hit points, and fear cats, ravens, rats, and small 20 lb. dogs.

Yup. Street Legal (RAW).

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Very nice.

My rule of thumb is as per the DMG, where most peasants are first level, have 2 hit points, and fear cats, ravens, rats, and small 20 lb. dogs.

Yup. Street Legal (RAW).

And we all play by the book because it was given to us from Heaven by Gygax to WotC and it is holy writ.

Nah, just sic the cats on the rats and the ravens and the small 20 lb. dogs on the cats and the peasants will be safe.