D&D 5E Casters should go back to being interruptable like they used to be.

[Micah Sweet]

He has said many times on this forum that the Wizard should go away.

The class, or the company? @Vaalingrade blocked me long ago.

 

[CreamCloud0]

The class, or the company? @Vaalingrade blocked me long ago.

the class. "because apparently the game will always be designed around the desires of wizard players, unless there's no more wizards to play."

 

[ezo]

Jeez...

Yes, I was refuting a point you made.

No, you weren't refuting it. My point stands and cannot be refuted, it is factual.

Yeah, no, that's not this thread. This is the conversation about how upcasting was automatic in 1e, which you attempted to counter by pointing out differences in spell power levels.

Um, kinda wrong again. This thread is about many things. I've only challenged the point that AD&D has several times more spellcasting slots. Haven't attempted to challenge or counter anything else yet.

@Stormonu began by pointing out:

@ezo, you are also not taking into account that 1E/2E that spells automatically increase power without having to use 5e’s “at higher level” increase. For example, in 1E/2E a 3rd level fireball does 20d6, whereas a 5E 3rd level fireball does only 8d6 unless you cast it at a higher level. Then, there is magic missile…

Which, while true, had no bearing on the discussion I was part of at the time. And so my reply

I didn't need to take it into account because it is irrelevant to the issue of the (general) claim that AD&D has several times more spell slots than 5E.

And again, although many spells auto-increased in power in AD&D, I simply added:

Did they really? Sometimes, but you also need to consider the a 5th-level caster of fireball in AD&D is 5d6, while it is 8d6 in 5E. And in AD&D a 1st-level caster of magic missile gets ONE missile, the 5E version gets three...

Which is also all true that the 5E version of fireball would be the same as if an 8th level caster in AD&D cast it. And the 1st-level 5E magic missle would be equal to a 5th-level AD&D caster.

This was not an "attempt to counter by pointing out differences in spell power levels." I wasn't countering @Stormonu, I was pointing out that the spells begin at a more "powerful" effect in 5E.

I further refuted that you couldn't look at the spell damage alone because of creature hp.

Sure, but it wasn't necessary as I am well aware that 5E creatures have more hp. And I already know that spells are more powerful at default (in general, in other ways some aren't) to deal with the hp bloat.

Now, with context, go re-read the hit point comparison. Understand now? This is its own area of discussion broken off of the original. Although how "original" it is is itself suspect as that branch happened on page 6 of comments spun off an observation started on page 4.

But you're trying to discuss something that there's no need to discuss...

 

[Shardstone]

So you're complaining about issues that don't affect you personally? Welcome to the club! We should have our own subforum.

???

Not only have I backed you up on countless threads over this same topic, I have no idea why you're steering the conversation in this direction. My point was that I want WotC to do these things, not whatever you thought it was lmao

 

[Micah Sweet]

???

Not only have I backed you up on countless threads over this same topic, I have no idea why you're steering the conversation in this direction. My point was that I want WotC to do these things, not whatever you thought it was lmao

But if you have your own solutions to the problems you see, why do you want WotC to fix it too? That's what I'm asking. I assumed you were just discussing issues academically. That's what I try to shoot for (emotion-fueled rants about WotC's modern versions of classic campaign settings aside).

 

[ezo]

Given that you have a strong desire not to look at rules in a vacuum, this is a passingly strange comment to make, no matter how jokingly.

Let's look at this!

First, Magic Users in 1e reached "name level" at 11. Again, 11th level. So you're right, in way. 13th level is practically god mode. To even cast a ninth level spell you had to be 18th level, which is practically unheard of in an AD&D campaign.

But let's think about the name-level wizard in AD&D, shall we?

First, they have no combat cantrips. None. Instead, at 11th level, they have proficiency in two weapons. That's okay, because you can only ever get three. Staff, dagger, dart. Pick two. That's your go-to. Not a scaling damage cantrip. But you don't want to be in combat, because you have approximately 23 hit points. Okay, let's assume you got max hit points at first level. You have 27 hit points. And a bad AC, because you can't wear armor. Which means that you can probably get taken out before getting a spell off. But even if you aren't, if you're hit, you still don't get the spell of. And unless you're casting one of a very limited number of spells (Magic Missile, Power Word), you're going to go last in a round.

Next, your spells are 4/4/4/3/3. But are you actually using them all in a day? That could be a problem. Not only do you have to memorize them (and select them ahead of time, VANCIAN FTW!), but you need to get your eight hours of sleep in, and then spend (1+2+3+3+3.75)= 12.75 hours memorizing your spells again! So there goes another day. Sure hope you weren't doing anything important.

Oh, you memorized only fireballs? Gee, that's a shame, given that you are indoors, or in a city, or in a dungeon, or in any inconvenient location that doesn't take into account the size of the explosion. Maybe you wanted a lightning bolt? Of course, if all you took were those spells, you missed out on some of the pretty useful other spells you get there. I mean, I can imagine parties that need Leomund's Tiny Hut sometimes. Or Dispel Magic. Or Fly. There's a lot of useful spells there .... shame you wasted them all on fireball. Maybe you need to take another day off and re-select some spells since you aren't just troll hunting for DPR.

Oh, and the monster you encountered has magic resistance? Shame.

I don't want to oversell this. A name-level MU in 1e was pretty awesome. Just like any name-level character. But they weren't god mode. And it was rough sledding for a long time playing a MU as well. To try and compare casters in any edition in the WoTC era to the TSR era is a laughable exercise. Because magic has become ubiquitous. That's neither good nor bad, but it certainly is.

Very nice, Snarf!

Also, let's not forget that in AD&D you also had to roll to learn your spells!!

I mean, even at INT 16 you had a 35% chance to fail to learn a spell... tough nuggie, huh? Didn't get fireball when you hit 5th level, try for lightning bolt. Crap! failed that, too, huh??? Sigh... What to do, what to do...?

Well, next level you can try again. Oh, wait, you can't, not until your Intelligence increases... which is at what level in AD&D? Oh, it isn't, right... Hmm... where did I put that Tome of Clear Thought...

Until something happens and your Intelligence drops... in which case now you get to go through all the spells you've learned and check them again to make certain you still understand them and get to cast them.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Very nice, Snarf!

Also, let's not forget that in AD&D you also had to roll to learn your spells!!

I mean, even at INT 16 you had a 35% chance to fail to learn a spell... tough nuggie, huh? Didn't get fireball when you hit 5th level, try for lightning bolt. Crap! failed that, too, huh??? Sigh... What to do, what to do...?

Well, next level you can try again. Oh, wait, you can't, not until your Intelligence increases... which is at what level in AD&D? Oh, it isn't, right... Hmm... where did I put that Tome of Clear Thought...

Well, until something happens and your Intelligence drops... in which case now you get to go through all the spells you've learned and check them again to make certain you still understand them and get to cast them.

This is why the spells you do manage to cast are usually pretty great.

 

[Shardstone]

But if you have your own solutions to the problems you see, why do you want WotC to fix it too? That's what I'm asking. I assumed you were just discussing issues academically. That's what I try to shoot for (emotion-fueled rants about WotC's modern versions of classic campaign settings aside).

Because WotC won't do it the same way I will. And maybe WotC's way will be better than mine. But either way, it'll help improve me as a game designer by seeing them try to tackle this problem.

 

[ECMO3]

He says that because apparently the game will always be designed around the desires of wizard players, unless there's no more wizards to play.

I think very few players restrict themselves to one class. I have played 5E with over 100 different people and there are only two players I have played with multiple times that do this, one plays only Artificers, the other plays only Fighters. Every other player I played with more than once played different classes in different games (or sometimes in the same game after a death).

Given that I don't really think there is a significant group of "Wizard players" who only play Wizards. I am sure there are a few, but not a significant enough number to have any impact on game design.

 

[Hell0W0rld]

Back to the topic at hand, I agree with the premise. Being able to disrupt spellcasting with opportunity attacks should be the default.

A similar feat to Combat Casting from previous editions can be reintroduced for those casters who want to cast in melee, rather than adding to the burden of melee attackers with the Mage Slayer tax.