D&D 5E Casters should go back to being interruptable like they used to be.

[Stormonu]

@ezo, you are also not taking into account that 1E/2E that spells automatically increase power without having to use 5e’s “at higher level” increase. For example, in 1E/2E a 3rd level fireball does 20d6, whereas a 5E 3rd level fireball does only 8d6 unless you cast it at a higher level. Then, there is magic missile…

 

[W'rkncacnter]

@ezo, you are also not taking into account that 1E/2E that spells automatically increase power without having to use 5e’s “at higher level” increase. For example, in 1E/2E a 3rd level fireball does 20d6, whereas a 5E 3rd level fireball does only 8d6 unless you cast it at a higher level. Then, there is magic missile…

i assume you mean when cast by a 20th level wizard, right?

 

[Stormonu]

i assume you mean when cast by a 20th level wizard, right?

Yes, at the extreme end. But even lower level 1E/2E casters spells got improve effect with character level without even having to “upcast” spells.

 

[ECMO3]

If your combats are lasting ten rounds, that is a DM issue. If you are scampering into melee to cast haste, that's a you issue.

It is usually a matter of losing initiative or losing concentration and the fights don't last 10 rounds, but if you cast before combat, you better know a combat is imminent.

I don't think you'll find a lot of players charging their wizard directly into melee to cast pre-combat buff spells.

Wizards end up in melee all the time in games I play (either by choice or not). Some Wizards in games I play are built specifically to melee.

However this also has a huge effect on Hexblades, Eldritch Knights, heavy armor Clerics and Paladins all of whom typically seek out melee.

They got rid of them because people complained about combat time and 'simplicity' without ever thinking of the consequences.

That may be part of it, but I don't think most players are eager to see the mechanic return.

 

[Vaalingrade]

It is usually a matter of losing initiative or losing concentration and the fights don't last 10 rounds, but if you cast before combat, you better know a combat is imminent.

Which you do most of the time.

Wizards end up in melee all the time in games I play (either by choice or not). Some Wizards in games I play are built specifically to melee.

Then they shall perish.

However this also has a huge effect on Hexblades, Eldritch Knights, heavy armor Clerics and Paladins all of whom typically seek out melee.

Those guys cast actual combat spells which I already said should have exceptions, not explicit buffs that have no business being cast in melee.

That may be part of it, but I don't think most players are eager to see the mechanic return.

I don't think 'most players' are as ardently pro-wizard as you think. Or desperately suicidal with their wizards.

 

[ECMO3]

Those guys cast actual combat spells which I already said should have exceptions, not explicit buffs that have no business being cast in melee.

No. The examples I gave included the basic spells an Eldritch Knight casts in melee (Blur, Haste) as well as the basic Cleric melee spell (Spirit Guardians). Paladins have all kinds of spells on their list, including buff and control spells (Bless, Command, Compelled Duel, Aid).

Those are some of the spells these guys cast in combat.

I don't think 'most players' are as ardently pro-wizard as you think. Or desperately suicidal with their wizards.

Most Wizards don't seek out melee, but they do often find themselves in melee. When I am DMing I usually have intelligent enemies try to go straight for the first clothy caster that throws a spell, even if it causes AOOs .... as a melee PC I usually do the same.

I don't think players are ardently pro-wizard, I think they are ardently pro-magic and I think they would be against rules that mean their Paladin, Ranger, Fighter .... or Wizard ....... will take an AOO for casting a spell in melee.

 

[ezo]

@ezo, you are also not taking into account that 1E/2E that spells automatically increase power without having to use 5e’s “at higher level” increase. For example, in 1E/2E a 3rd level fireball does 20d6, whereas a 5E 3rd level fireball does only 8d6 unless you cast it at a higher level. Then, there is magic missile…

I didn't need to take it into account because it is irrelevant to the issue of the (general) claim that AD&D has several times more spell slots than 5E.

Yes, at the extreme end. But even lower level 1E/2E casters spells got improve effect with character level without even having to “upcast” spells.

Did they really? Sometimes, but you also need to consider the a 5th-level caster of fireball in AD&D is 5d6, while it is 8d6 in 5E. And in AD&D a 1st-level caster of magic missile gets ONE missile, the 5E version gets three...

Finally, I don't really consider examples at 20th level of play particularly relevant as very few games ever reach such a level.

 

[Lanefan]

Which you do most of the time.

Then they shall perish.

Those guys cast actual combat spells which I already said should have exceptions, not explicit buffs that have no business being cast in melee.

Not often I agree with you but you're on a roll this time! Keep it up!

I don't think 'most players' are as ardently pro-wizard as you think.

The ardently-pro-wizard crowd is small but very vocal, and have had an outsized influence on D&D's design ever since WotC took over the reins.

@ezo has a point too: looking at 20th-level examples is a bit pointless when one remembers that name level in 1e (where play was more or less expected to stop, though it didn't always) is roughly half that...

 

[ezo]

@ezo has a point too: looking at 20th-level examples is a bit pointless when one remembers that name level in 1e (where play was more or less expected to stop, though it didn't always) is roughly half that...

And alongside that in 5E few games make it past tier 2...

 

[Lanefan]

No. The examples I gave included the basic spells an Eldritch Knight casts in melee (Blur, Haste) as well as the basic Cleric melee spell (Spirit Guardians). Paladins have all kinds of spells on their list, including buff and control spells (Bless, Command, Compelled Duel, Aid).

Most of those are spells that should be cast before entering combat, or (in the case of Command) cast from range during combat. As in:

Round 1 - party and foes see each other. Full-martials on both sides charge. Eldritch Knight does not charge and instead casts Blur on someone. Paladin charges in while casting Bless (one of the very few spells I allow to be cast while in melee). Wizard does not charge and instead casts Web behind the foes to cut off their escape. Cleric either hangs back and casts ranged spells* or charges, depending on the specific character.

Round 2 - melee continues. Eldritch Knight casts Haste on someone. Paladin becomes a full-martial and just fights from here on. Wizard casts Magic Missile on some annoying enemy or other.

Round 3 - melee continues. Eldritch Knight charges in and goes full-martial from here on. Wizard cast spells as appropriate while staying out of melee.

.....continues until......

Round x - melee ends. Cleric starts casting cures (which IMO should not be castable while in melee).

* - which don't include healing; ranged healing can die in a fire whenever it wants.

Most Wizards don't seek out melee, but they do often find themselves in melee. When I am DMing I usually have intelligent enemies try to go straight for the first clothy caster that throws a spell, even if it causes AOOs .... as a melee PC I usually do the same.

Indeed, and when that Wizard finds itself in melee it should by the same token find itself in a world o' trouble: it can't cast, and its fighting skills are awful.

If a Wizard finds itself in melee then either the martials didn't do their job (that being protecting the Wizard) or something crept up on the party from behind.

I don't think players are ardently pro-wizard, I think they are ardently pro-magic and I think they would be against rules that mean their Paladin, Ranger, Fighter .... or Wizard ....... will take an AOO for casting a spell in melee.

Never mind AOO, casting while in melee shouldn't even be an available tactic (exception: a very very few combat-affecting spells e.g. Bless, Chant, Prayer) unless your specific intent is to cast a wild magic surge and see what happens.