D&D 5E Casters should go back to being interruptable like they used to be.

[kigmatzomat]

....but you also need to consider the a 5th-level caster of fireball in AD&D is 5d6, while it is 8d6 in 5E.

Except 5e creatures have so many more hit points. So. Many. More. The "bounding box" philosophy means AC is constrained more, so HP is generally cranked up. And if HP goes up, the effectiveness of fireball goes down.

Let's take a common fireball target example: troll. A 1e & 2e troll was 33hp (hd6+6), 3e was 68hp (6d8+36) and a 5e troll is 84hp (8d10 + 40).

That 1e fireball is ~50% of hp, the 5e fireball is 33%.

It's not n apples-to-apples comparison even if they are both called hit points.

And in AD&D a 1st-level caster of magic missile gets ONE missile, the 5E version gets three...

Let's consider a prime magic missile target: kobolds.
Kobolds in 5e have 5hp (2d6-2) vs ODD 2.5hp (1/2 d8)

So each od&d magic missile can slay a kobold while it takes two 5e missiles. So at 1st level, 5e slays 1, injures another while the ODD slays one. Then at 6th level the ODD slays 3 while an upcast-as-3rd slays 2 and injures a 3rd. At 11th ODD slays 5 while upcast-as-5th slays 3 and injures a 4th.

Lets go back to the troll, it's 14% of an 1e troll at 1st level or 12% of a 5e troll with a 1st level caster.

Now scale up. 6th level ODD caster does ~13hp (40%) while a 6th level 5e caster using a 3rd level spell slot does 17hp (20%). Up to 11th level, ODD caster ~22hp (66%) and 5e caster using a 5th slot does 24hp (30%)

16th level? ODD 32hp/95% vs 5e 35hp/40%. And the 5e caster is using an 8th level slot. Well, probably not as there's likely something better but still, scaling example of an ODD caster eseentially slaying an uninjured troll with a 1st level spell slot which is simply un-possible in 5e.

You can't look at rules in a vacuum.

Finally, I don't really consider examples at 20th level of play particularly relevant as very few games ever reach such a level.

I have had campaigns in 1e, 2e and 3e edition reach 20+ and in 5e we're at 15. (I skipped 4e, life got in the way for several years) So I consider tier 4 rules quite relevant.

I would be fine skipping tier 1, to be honest.

 

[Umbran]

Counterspell and Dispel Magic are means to interrupt magic that only people able to cast magic (or have the appropriate magic item(s)) can do.

The poster (and thread) is referring to bringing back a way to interrupt magic which once existed in the game (but currently doesn't) that anyone can do- not just spell casters or those with other ways to access specific magic.

Thus, pointing out magical ways to interrupt magic is so far from the point that even teleport can't traverse the distance.

Actually, it is right next to the point, but you are missing it.

With Counterspell and Dispel Magic, you basically have two spellcasters burning up spellslots wiggling their fingers at each other with massive eyebrow action, while the martials can still be busy at the work of running enemies through with sharp metal bits.

In terms of the martial/magical balance, that is superior to having a martial character have to use up any form of action to do the deed.

 

[kigmatzomat]

You know....I am starting to think all those OSR players need to quit playing overpowered characters and come play a gritty 5e game where killing a troll takes half again more fireballs, magic missile really isn't much more than a nuisance past 5th level, spells don't autoscale, there are few spells with duration you can have running simultaneously , and nobody, I mean nobody, ever gets two wish spells a day. Or even 4 fireballs.

Sure, 5e spells come back faster and its more likely they can be cast in combat...for all the good that does us. You could never drop an uninjured troll to its knees with a 5e magic missile using a 1st level slot. Targets make a save every round. EVERY. ROUND.

What's that? Five fireballs? At 13th level? And they do 13d6? That's playing "God mode", my friend. Might as well turn on "no clip" and walk through walls. Magic users...spoiled brats the lot of 'em.

 

[ECMO3]

Except 5e creatures have so many more hit points. So. Many. More.

This is definitely true. Lolth is a goddess and I think she had less than 70 hps in 1E.

 

[ECMO3]

Targets make a save every round. EVERY. ROUND.

This is a big difference. In 1E if BBEG failed a save against a hold person spell he was paralyzed for 90 rounds with no more saves.

There are some gems in 5E but you have to pay attention - Wrathful Smite, Web and Fear are the first three that come to mind that don't offer saves every single turn, although even with these there are ways to break them.

 

[Votan]

This is definitely true. Lolth is a goddess and I think she had less than 70 hps in 1E.

Or look at dragons, in 1E the mighty red dragon capped out at 88 hp!

 

[James Gasik]

Or look at dragons, in 1E the mighty red dragon capped out at 88 hp!

For a good reason, since his breath weapon also did 88 damage at that point!

 

[ECMO3]

Most of those are spells that should be cast before entering combat, or (in the case of Command) cast from range during combat. As in:

Round 1 - party and foes see each other. Full-martials on both sides charge. Eldritch Knight does not charge and instead casts Blur on someone.

"Someone" for the EK is himself and he casts Blur on himself and charges. In most parties he is probably the only melee martial and probably has a weak dexterity so often he will be in melee before he even goes. I see the EK cast Blur (or PEG if they are undead, fiends, fey etc) first round, often while already engaged and low in the initiative.

With Dissonant Whispers and Command the most common use is to actually move into melee range to cast the spell so you get an opportunity attack (with another spell with Warcaster) when the enemy runs away. That is what Dissonant Whispers and one of the uses of Command is designed to do.

The Cleric likewise casts while engaged. He is designed to be in the front because he is wearing heavy armor. He is a tankish blocker.

IF you watch games online, this is how it is commonly done. Casters cast in melee ALL THE TIME.

Paladin charges in while casting Bless (one of the very few spells I allow to be cast while in melee).

If he wins initiative

Cleric either hangs back and casts ranged spells* or charges, depending on the specific character.

So he hangs back and does not use his most powerful options?

Round 2 - melee continues. Eldritch Knight casts Haste on someone.

If he is concentrating on Blur he can't cast haste on someone.

This may be how you wish 5E was played, but it is not how it is played by most tables as evidenced by the abundance of videos of gameplay online. People cast spells in melee all the time, to include by martials.

 

[ezo]

You can't look at rules in a vacuum.

There's nothing to look at....

Do you realize you went through all that for nothing? Do you even know why you did it?

I'm well aware of the differences between AD&D and 5E, thank you very much. And the (very simple) point I was refuting was the claim that in AD&D you had several times more spell slots than in 5E. That's all, nothing more, no other comparison, not even an argument about why (since it wasn't true in general and the poster explained he was only referencing things in tier 4, which cleared up our debate on it).

I have had campaigns in 1e, 2e and 3e edition reach 20+ and in 5e we're at 15. (I skipped 4e, life got in the way for several years) So I consider tier 4 rules quite relevant.

Yeah, yeah, me too. I've had two 5E groups reach 20 as well. BUT most games do NOT get that far. Neither in AD&D nor in 5E. I've had many more barely make it to 10-12 levels. If you find that your are routinely getting to that level, you're an outlier.

I would be fine skipping tier 1, to be honest.

Your perrogative of course, then skip it.

There are many groups who jump in at 3rd level or higher IME. (Probably because it takes so little time to get through levels 1 and 2 normally).

You know....I am starting to think all those OSR players need to quit playing overpowered characters and come play a gritty 5e game where killing a troll takes half again more fireballs, magic missile really isn't much more than a nuisance past 5th level, spells don't autoscale, there are few spells with duration you can have running simultaneously , and nobody, I mean nobody, ever gets two wish spells a day. Or even 4 fireballs.

Sure, 5e spells come back faster and its more likely they can be cast in combat...for all the good that does us. You could never drop an uninjured troll to its knees with a 5e magic missile using a 1st level slot. Targets make a save every round. EVERY. ROUND.

What's that? Five fireballs? At 13th level? And they do 13d6? That's playing "God mode", my friend. Might as well turn on "no clip" and walk through walls. Magic users...spoiled brats the lot of 'em.

And I have no idea where this rant came from, LOL! But it's very funny...

 

[kigmatzomat]

There's nothing to look at....
Do you realize you went through all that for nothing? Do you even know why you did it?

Yes, I was refuting a point you made.

And the (very simple) point I was refuting was the claim that in AD&D you had several times more spell slots than in 5E.

Yeah, no, that's not this thread. This is the conversation about how upcasting was automatic in 1e, which you attempted to counter by pointing out differences in spell power levels.

I further refuted that you couldn't look at the spell damage alone because of creature hp.

Here, let me refresh your memory with continuity:

even lower level 1E/2E casters spells got improve effect with character level without even having to “upcast” spells.

Did they really? Sometimes, but you also need to consider the a 5th-level caster of fireball in AD&D is 5d6, while it is 8d6 in 5E. And in AD&D a 1st-level caster of magic missile gets ONE missile, the 5E version gets three...

Now, with context, go re-read the hit point comparison. Understand now? This is its own area of discussion broken off of the original. Although how "original" it is is itself suspect as that branch happened on page 6 of comments spun off an observation started on page 4.

This thread is distinctly not a vacuum. Context is relevant.