You do[/] know that martial have things they can do that casters can't? Why not just demand full spellcasting progression too?
D&D 5E (2014) Casters vs Martials: Part 1 - Magic, its most basic components
- Thread starter Stalker0
- Start date
really? like what? as i see it most casters can can sing "anythng you can do I can do better, I can do anything better then you" to well made martial classes...
lets take a party of fighters (1 champion, 1 battlemaster) and rogues (1 assassin 1 thief) . Then take a party of a Moon Druid, a Lore Bard, a Bladesinger Wizard, and a Hexblade/blade pact warlock... lets make all of them human. What can that 1st party do over the second (other then be stopped by a magic warded dooor)
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
LOL, didn't I sing that upthread?
Anyway, you know, upthread there was a poster who said they wanted their "arch-martial" (my term) power-level character to be able to wade into an army and mow them all down.
Well, depending on your encounter set-up and just what you consider an "army", a level 20 Fighter (Champion) built right with a few magic items (mostly AC boosting so a natural 20 is needed to hit), could defeat well over 1000 "guards" with short bows. Depending on just how many attacks are coming each round, it could be more or less. If you had less than 40 attacks per round (with my set up), the PC could kill any number of guards, theoretically. If you want the full information I used, let me know and I'll post it.
I discussed it with my players last night, and frankly they were amazed by that number, and we all agreed that seemed superheroic to us.
Could archmage also do it? Of course. Given the right spell, I can't think of anything a martial can do that a archmage couldn't...
But to make that happen, certain spells would need to be removed from the game IMO. But it also seems to me (in some ways) spells just get more powerful over all.
Asisreo
Patron Badass
For the subclass, again I'm sure this is a controversial decision, but I'm going to use the 4elemonk as a chassis. The playstyle is different, but the core structure will be roughly the same. Heroic Points get to be increased, and some restrict how many based on class level. Some have no restriction on maximum points spent.
Hero Path: Valor
You gain a Valor Techniques at level 3. You gain an additional one at certain levels. When you gain a new Technique, you can replace an old one with a new one. You also gain the Valiant Ally Valor Technique at level 3.
Valiant Ally. Once per short rest, when an ally other than you makes an ability check, you can have them add their proficiency bonus to the check. If they already add their proficiency bonus to the check, they double their proficiency bonus for that check.
Inspire. As an action, You can spend 2 Heoric points to grant an ally 2 temporary HP's at the end of each of their turns. For every additional heroic point spent on this Technique, the Temporary HP granted at the end of their turns increases by 1. This Technique is restricted by the Heroic Point table.
Quick Pin. When you take the attack action, you can spend 1 Heroic Point to make a grapple attempt without exchanging an attack. If you succeed on a grapple on that turn, you can spend 1 additional Heroic Point to restrain the target.
Steady Breath. As a bonus action, you can spend 1 Heroic Point to breathe normally in any environment. You also have advantage on saving throws against any harmful games or vapors such as Cloudkill and Stinking Cloud.
Blinding Strike. As an action, you can spend 2 Heroic Points and make a melee attack against one creatue. They must make a constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes an additional 3d12 damage plus an additonal 1d12 for each additional Heroic Point spent and be blinded for 1 minute. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending the effect on a success. On a success, the target takes half of the additional damage and is not blinded.
Fang Breaker. As an action, you can spend 2 Heroic Points and make a melee attack against one creature. They must make a strength saving throw. On a failed save, they take 3d12 damage plus an additional 1d12 for each additional Heroic Point spent and their damage is halved for 1 minute. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending the effect on a success. On a success, the target takes half the additional damage and does not have damage reduced.
Observe Defenses. As a bonus action, you can spend 2 Heroic Points and your attacks gain a bonus to attack rolls equal to your Intelligence modifier for 1 minute.
Detect Intent. As an action, you can spend 2 heroic points to detect the location of any hostile creatures within 100ft and can sense when a creature becomes hostile toward you for 10 minutes.
Comradery (level 6). As an action, you can spend 3 Heroic Points and choose a target within range. The next time the target makes an attack roll, the damage is counted as magical for the purposes of resistance and immunity. They also do an additional 2d6 damage plus 1d6 damage for each additional Heroic Point spent. This is restricted by the Heroic Point table.
Tremoring Strike (level 6). As an action, you can spend 3 Heroic Points. Choose a point within 60ft on the ground, each creature within 30ft of that point must make a strength saving throw or take 2d10 bludgeoning damage plus an additional 1d10 damage for each additional Heroic Point spent. They are also knocked prone. On a success, they take half damage and are not knocked prone. This is restricted by the Heroic Point table.
Focus (level 11). As an action, you can spend 4 Heroic Points to bolster your next attack. When you make a melee attack against a creature within 5ft of you on your next turn, you automatically hit and it guarantees a crit. This effect can be added onto subsequent attacks for each additional Heroic Point spent. This is restricted by the Heroic Point table.
Firm Stance (level 11). As an action, you can spend 4 Heroic Points to focus on defense. You are immune to all damage except pyschic and force until the start of your next turn.
Coordinated Positioning (level 11). As an action, you can spend 4 Heroic Points and for 1 minute, whenever you shove a creature, you can choose whether or not it provokes opportunity attacks. If the creature is a willing creature, it can use its reaction to make a melee attack or cast a cantrip with an attack roll or saving throw. If you shove a creature into a harmful effect, it takes double damage.
Myriad Strikes (level 17). As an action, you can spend 5 Ki points and choose a point within 30ft. You take the most direct path to each creature within range and make a melee attack against them without using your movement. If the melee attacks hit, they are counted as a critical.
Demolition (level 17). As an action, you can spend 6 Ki points and choose an inanimate object in range, you destroy one nonmagical object of size Large or smaller. It takes 1 minute to destroy an object of size Huge or smaller and 10 minutes to destroy a magical item.
Gallant Stride (level 17). You can spend 5 heroic points and choose 5 creatures within range. Those creatures are under the effect of the Freedom of Movement spell.
Honestly, It's not the best but I hope there's a good look at what a monk-based Heroic Martial would look like.
Hero Path: Valor
You gain a Valor Techniques at level 3. You gain an additional one at certain levels. When you gain a new Technique, you can replace an old one with a new one. You also gain the Valiant Ally Valor Technique at level 3.
Valiant Ally. Once per short rest, when an ally other than you makes an ability check, you can have them add their proficiency bonus to the check. If they already add their proficiency bonus to the check, they double their proficiency bonus for that check.
Inspire. As an action, You can spend 2 Heoric points to grant an ally 2 temporary HP's at the end of each of their turns. For every additional heroic point spent on this Technique, the Temporary HP granted at the end of their turns increases by 1. This Technique is restricted by the Heroic Point table.
Quick Pin. When you take the attack action, you can spend 1 Heroic Point to make a grapple attempt without exchanging an attack. If you succeed on a grapple on that turn, you can spend 1 additional Heroic Point to restrain the target.
Steady Breath. As a bonus action, you can spend 1 Heroic Point to breathe normally in any environment. You also have advantage on saving throws against any harmful games or vapors such as Cloudkill and Stinking Cloud.
Blinding Strike. As an action, you can spend 2 Heroic Points and make a melee attack against one creatue. They must make a constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes an additional 3d12 damage plus an additonal 1d12 for each additional Heroic Point spent and be blinded for 1 minute. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending the effect on a success. On a success, the target takes half of the additional damage and is not blinded.
Fang Breaker. As an action, you can spend 2 Heroic Points and make a melee attack against one creature. They must make a strength saving throw. On a failed save, they take 3d12 damage plus an additional 1d12 for each additional Heroic Point spent and their damage is halved for 1 minute. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending the effect on a success. On a success, the target takes half the additional damage and does not have damage reduced.
Observe Defenses. As a bonus action, you can spend 2 Heroic Points and your attacks gain a bonus to attack rolls equal to your Intelligence modifier for 1 minute.
Detect Intent. As an action, you can spend 2 heroic points to detect the location of any hostile creatures within 100ft and can sense when a creature becomes hostile toward you for 10 minutes.
Comradery (level 6). As an action, you can spend 3 Heroic Points and choose a target within range. The next time the target makes an attack roll, the damage is counted as magical for the purposes of resistance and immunity. They also do an additional 2d6 damage plus 1d6 damage for each additional Heroic Point spent. This is restricted by the Heroic Point table.
Tremoring Strike (level 6). As an action, you can spend 3 Heroic Points. Choose a point within 60ft on the ground, each creature within 30ft of that point must make a strength saving throw or take 2d10 bludgeoning damage plus an additional 1d10 damage for each additional Heroic Point spent. They are also knocked prone. On a success, they take half damage and are not knocked prone. This is restricted by the Heroic Point table.
Focus (level 11). As an action, you can spend 4 Heroic Points to bolster your next attack. When you make a melee attack against a creature within 5ft of you on your next turn, you automatically hit and it guarantees a crit. This effect can be added onto subsequent attacks for each additional Heroic Point spent. This is restricted by the Heroic Point table.
Firm Stance (level 11). As an action, you can spend 4 Heroic Points to focus on defense. You are immune to all damage except pyschic and force until the start of your next turn.
Coordinated Positioning (level 11). As an action, you can spend 4 Heroic Points and for 1 minute, whenever you shove a creature, you can choose whether or not it provokes opportunity attacks. If the creature is a willing creature, it can use its reaction to make a melee attack or cast a cantrip with an attack roll or saving throw. If you shove a creature into a harmful effect, it takes double damage.
Myriad Strikes (level 17). As an action, you can spend 5 Ki points and choose a point within 30ft. You take the most direct path to each creature within range and make a melee attack against them without using your movement. If the melee attacks hit, they are counted as a critical.
Demolition (level 17). As an action, you can spend 6 Ki points and choose an inanimate object in range, you destroy one nonmagical object of size Large or smaller. It takes 1 minute to destroy an object of size Huge or smaller and 10 minutes to destroy a magical item.
Gallant Stride (level 17). You can spend 5 heroic points and choose 5 creatures within range. Those creatures are under the effect of the Freedom of Movement spell.
Honestly, It's not the best but I hope there's a good look at what a monk-based Heroic Martial would look like.
yes you didLOL, didn't I sing that upthread?
Vaalingrade
Legend
Or.
Ooooor.
Martials could be elevated to be allowed to have good and fun. Then no one loses.
I think a lot of obstructive mage fans think martial fans want to depower spellcasters, but we don't. We just want our characters to be fun and interesting instead of attack machines.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
I would be curious to find out just how many players aren't having fun with their martial PCs, even at the highest levels? How many people are actually dissatisfied?
IME, everyone's had fun and good times, even with martials in tiers 3 and 4.
To be perfectly clear: no, I am not saying there isn't a minority who is unhappy, obviously, considering people posting here about it. So, please, don't try to turn my actual, legitimate curiosity expressed above around, ok? Thanks.
Maybe, I don't know. All I can do is express my own views, which is to depower spellcasters in general just because that is the time of game I prefer.
Hmm... most of the examples I've seen people wanting often are about attacking or combat-related. Of course a lot of D&D is about combat for many tables, so that's understandable I suppose.
What, non-attacking things, makes your martial "fun and interesting"?
IME post level 10 play of D&D (outside of 0e, 1e, and 4e) was either
- A major chore for the DM as they had to play favorites or dumb for the martials
- The martial PC players complain or get disinterested
- Everyone starts casting spells.
Asisreo
Patron Badass
I don't really see a problem with 3, at least on the DM side.
I make high-fantasy scenarios at tier 3+ do it's not like I'm afraid of a everyone having access to magic in some form.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
Thanks for sharing your experiences!
I think the only reason I never encountered player disinterest with martial PCs is because in 1E/2E you had a lot of magic items for martials, as well as things like claiming land, building armies, etc. made it interesting.
I never had the experience with your issue #1 or #3, though.
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