D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 2 - The Mundane Limit

[Mordhau]

Sorry, wasn't calling you out. Just adding to the thoughts in your post which seemed to be going in the same direction.

Seems like we are very much on the same page.

One way to balance against Dr. Strange = Hulk (mythic martial)

Some people want a Black Widow (action hero martial) to be able to adventure alongside Dr. Strange and have the same importance/impact to the story though. I have no problem with this.

This is impossible using Black Widow's on paper power set though.

AND on top of this, it is difficult to model even this level of power -- typical action hero stuff because of current mechancial limitations that some people are demanding on martial abilities. (will saves have to mean mind control, etc)

One way to do this is with powerful limited use abililities. Another way to the power of mundanes is to do this is by abtraction or meta currency.

For instance -- even though Black Widow can't fly, circumstances often make it so she can use her skill set to accomplish the same thing in a combat scene. She parkours, jumps off platforms, bounces off other huge enemies, and makes it to a building rooftop 3 building over. Thor flies over and Hulk jumps in one jump.

But from an rpg point of view, the player needs some mechanic to trigger that all those things are available. The dragon lowers its head at just the right time for the mundane to jump on it and off again onto the high ledge with a cave opening.

This maybe can also be done with limited use abilities that follow traditional action economy (maybe), but seems like there is a lot of push back there as well because if you use existing mechanical contructs to do this (will saves, always works, etc.) then you get this "turning things into spells" deal even if the fictional representation is purely mundane/action hero.

I just had the realization of the extent of this mechanical hand tying going on. I always thought it was mostly a conceptual issue, but people are having trouble "giving nice things" to these action heros even after agreeing that this is the concept.

From your other posts, I don't think you disagree?

Yeah. I agree. One way this has been approached in the past is through metacurrency. The old Buffy game gave the companion characters a lot more metacurrency than a Slayer. (I never played it so I can't really say how well this works).

It may be that this allows some kind of balance against these characters, but I'm not sure that it feels particularly satisfying.

In a way it kind of works that way already. The fighter cannot dodge Fireballs or Dragonbreath plausibly unless we allow an obscene a lot of luck (although what I think happens most of the time at most tables is probably that people don't think about it all and just approach it as pure game).

 

[DND_Reborn]

The fighter cannot dodge Fireballs or Dragonbreath plausibly unless we allow an obscene a lot of luck (although what I think happens most of the time at most tables is probably that people don't think about it all and just approach it as pure game).

Oi! Don't even get me started on saving throws...

But FWIW when I DM we actually try to narrate saving throws, particularly when the effect is visible. I allow a PC to move up to half their speed to reposition themselves in the process of making a save. So, in your example a Fighter to makes his save might move to partial cover, helping explain narratively how he avoided half the damage, etc.

 

[Eubani]

When designing new martial abilities one must realize that you either engage the circus that wants to quash any new martial design and get nowhere or ignore them and get on with it. There will always be spell caster supremacist that will whine as soon as a martial character can do more than "I attack" for hp damage and the occasional ability check and the liars that scream "It's magic". If you constantly stop to engage these clowns you will only ever get bogged down and get nowhere, they have been at this for decades.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I am more, at this point, waiting for someone, anyone, to form some sort of consensus on what the martial improvers are really looking for, because IMO there is way too wide a spread in what they want... I've tried to do this, but received little feedback on it.

Otherwise, what is the point of the discussion?

For one group to say. "We want martials to rival spellcasters in power, especially at higher levels." and the responses to be:

1. Ok, who's stopping you? (So, just do it.)
2. You can't because magic is more powerful! (Ignore these people and do it.)
3. Sounds good, my advice is to try to give some justification for greater adoption. (It's advice, that's all, do it however you want.)
4. And so on... (Regardless, just do it.)

In other words, if you want it, just do it. But, you have to start somewhere.... unless you want to keep going back and forth to no end.

 

[Stalker0]

Also on the list of things being discussed are 5e Menacing Attack and Goading Attack, which NPCs can get and use against PCs.

This is a good example of finding that line of "mundane" vs "supernatural". Lets look at these 5e abilities.

Goading Attack - So the thing I do find fault with is the damage of the ability, this "goading" notion does imply some form of mental adjustment. If the attack was just a distracting strike or something, the idea that your attacks draw someone's attention and gives them penalties on their attacks....I mean that's a very real and normal physical phenomena....and why it passes the mundane test. So I think the mechanics of the maneuver are well within mundane means...even if the name's flavor does invoke a more supernatural cause.

Menacing Attack - The way this works is that we respect in the physical world that fear is not always logical, and that combats are in fight....very scary. So the idea of an attack that creates fear in an opponent...is very mundane. Further, lets note the mechanics here only add in some penalties, aka your engaging a bit more cautiously. Its not forcing you to run away screaming in the night, its just a combat penalty.

I would argue that these are a good step away from the "come and get it" ability to force movement (without use of physical objects) from multiple opponents.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

No. Neither of those things force action.

I flatly disagree. Being deceived by a disguise forces plenty of actions that would never occur otherwise.

Non-magical doesn't mean non-supernatural.

"Beginning at 10th level, you can use your action to frighten someone with your menacing presence."

That sounds supernatural to me.

Then prove it.

Prove that it's supernatural. Don't just claim it without support; that's a circular argument. Don't just use "well it sounds supernatural to my ears." It doesn't sound supernatural to mine--you're going to need more than just your impression. Give me an actual argument for why it's supernatural, from the rules themselves.

 

[Maxperson]

I flatly disagree. Being deceived by a disguise forces plenty of actions that would never occur otherwise.

What specific action(s) must I take?

Then prove it.

Prove that it's supernatural. Don't just claim it without support; that's a circular argument. Don't just use "well it sounds supernatural to my ears." It doesn't sound supernatural to mine--you're going to need more than just your impression. Give me an actual argument for why it's supernatural, from the rules themselves.

It's my opinion man. It sounds supernatural to me.

Edit: I don't need to give an argument from the rules. That's the point of this. The rules SHOULD call it supernatural. I don't have to rely on what the rules state for my position.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

In other words, if you want it, just do it.

Functional, effective game design is dramatically harder than this.

This is like saying, "You want to learn how to draw art good enough for people to commission you? Just do it." Uh...yeah, 'cause that's not, y'know, sweeping literal years of developing skills and actual real-money expenses under the rug like they're mere trivialities.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Functional, effective game design is dramatically harder than this.

I never said it was EASY LOL, I just said do it.

Work on it, offer drafts up for suggestions, etc. instead of debating the point over and over. Arguing the point with someone who doesn't think it is valid is IMO really a waste of time. I for one would love to see martials get some love, but my ideas fall far short of what other posters (in the 1st thread, really) have said they've wanted. Still, I am all for trying to help people make D&D the game they want to play, even if it isn't for me.

The OP offered a lot of examples, and some people critiqued them to try to move it forward, but then it drifted away.

If all the time spent debating it was used to develop it, we might actually see some progress. So, do you want to work on it, try to find a common ground for the power-levels people want, etc. or not? We could revisit the OP or start brain-storming other ideas.

 

[Azzy]

The save attempt doesn't do enough to represent what I'm talking about.

For you.