D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 2 - The Mundane Limit

[Undrave]

This can already be done. The strength = feet is only for jumping without a roll. Jumps so easy that you can just do them. You can by RAW exceed those limits with athletics skill.

IF your DM allows it. IF. It's a 'DM may I' thing.

 

[Minigiant]

Supernatural and magic aren't necessarily the same.

And a mundane 'dispel would contradict what we 'know' now. It would be a great addition to the lore to make magic actually part of the world instead of some cheap veneer lightly applied to the world like so much vinyl wrap on a mini cooper.

It'd be nice to have the nature of the world be fantastic and acknowledge that there's fantastic stuff that effects magic, be it material, technique of meta physics.

For example:

Witchbane Woad
This paste of willow, wysteria and mandragora pulp can be applied to the body to provide a bonus to saves vs effects caused by arcane spells.

Meditation on the Hidden Ways
Each morning, one may spend an hour meditating with a tea of certain herbs and talismans. Doing so allows you to become aware of any magical effect within 10ft of you. As an action, you may focus on a square to discern what objects or creatures within that square is generating a magical effect. IF you are trained in Arcana, you can discern the nature of that magic as normal with the skill.

Sunderweave Technique
By combining the heightened awareness of the Meditation on Hidden Ways, the warrior can make an attack against a magical effect on a creature or object. Make an attack against the target. On a hit, treat this as dispel magic. If you can discern what effects are on the target, you may choose which to dispel. If you are not, you dispel an effect at random.

This just reminds me of how little D&D did with metals.
I had a DM in 3.5 that had a blanket rule.

Silver bypassed Lawful DR and Fey DR
Cold Iron bypassed Chaotic DR and Lycantrope DR
Gold gave a save bonus vs evil
Lead gave a save bonus vs magic
Copper temporary drained magic and DR for a time

It made it simple for him to remember.

Would people accept that a warrior could stab a devil with a silvered dagger and dispel it's buffs? Maybe.

 

[DND_Reborn]

IF your DM allows it. IF. It's a 'DM may I' thing.

And even that is only spelled out under high jumping, not long jumping.

Like many rules in 5E, the under-cooked, "unfinished" feel is rampant in movement. Sadly.

 

[Gammadoodler]

What's strange about interpreting creature abilities as explicitly stated? The cockatrice ability is explicitly a magical ability. The basilisk gaze is explicitly supernatural. There's a reason for this and I've explained it to you multiple times now.

They're magical/supernatural because the game sets forth through example and through RAI that these things are beyond normal as commonly understood in English(our world).

This is a very weak attempt at justifying something that is obviously against RAI. It also does contradict every dispel interaction as all of them are magic on magic. A mundane "dispel magic" would contradict everything shown to us by current dispel abilities.

You understand that your argument here is that something added to RAW would violate RAI.

I assume "RAI" as used here means "Rules as inferred (by @Maxperson )". I'm not going to buy that DnD designers "intended" for DMs to use some agglomeration of aggregate monster ability descriptions to conclude upon the fundamental forces D&D settings.. certainly not in any "rules-relevant" way.

 

[DND_Reborn]

This just reminds me of how little D&D did with metals.
I had a DM in 3.5 that had a blanket rule.

Silver bypassed Lawful DR and Fey DR
Cold Iron bypassed Chaotic DR and Lycantrope DR
Gold gave a save bonus vs evil
Lead gave a save bonus vs magic
Copper temporary drained magic and DR for a time

It made it simple for him to remember.

I have a player who is VERY into stuff like this and wanting to bring it into the game. He is very much into rules for crafting items, etc.

Would people accept that a warrior could stab a devil with a silvered dagger and dispel it's buffs? Maybe.

I think so, and it does go to a good point made recently.

What is overlooked (even by myself at times) is what is mundane in our world is not necessarily the same as what is "mundane" in a fantasy world.

Incorporating "natural, real-world" elements in a fantasy world could include rare herbs which "energize a creature and increase its reflexes". In game effects might be speed increase by 10 feet and advantage on Dexterity saving throws.

But, I think really the difference pointed out is such things augment what an otherwise mundane creature could do. A commoner using such an herb would benefit just as well as a 10th-level rogue. In this respect, such a fantastical herb would be mundane by that world's standard of mundane, even if not mundane in our world.

So, it largely depends on what your fantasy world is like. Is it possible for a person, through extraordinary dedication to training and learning long lost forgotten techniques to leap 100 feet across a chasm, with nothing magical about it? If it is part of your world, why not? Now, also notice I just said was it possible for a "person" to do these things, not necessarily a PC...

 

[Maxperson]

IF your DM allows it. IF. It's a 'DM may I' thing.

Where is the "if?"

"This section explains in more detail what those abilities mean and the ways they are used in the game."

The ways they are used, not may be used.

"You try to jump an unusually long distance or pull off a stunt midjump."

There's no "if" or "may" in there. The only thing up in the air for the DM to decide is just how far you can go and what the DCs are.

 

[Maxperson]

This just reminds me of how little D&D did with metals.
I had a DM in 3.5 that had a blanket rule.

Silver bypassed Lawful DR and Fey DR
Cold Iron bypassed Chaotic DR and Lycantrope DR
Gold gave a save bonus vs evil
Lead gave a save bonus vs magic
Copper temporary drained magic and DR for a time

It made it simple for him to remember.

Would people accept that a warrior could stab a devil with a silvered dagger and dispel it's buffs? Maybe.

I think you might have Fey and Lycanthrope switched in that list.

 

[Maxperson]

You understand that your argument here is that something added to RAW would violate RAI.

A DM change to RAW that violates RAI does in fact violate RAI. The designers aren't going to redesign the game around this. If they add these things, the clearly supernatural/magical abilities will be labeled as such. This has been their design method since WotC purchased D&D.

I assume "RAI" as used here means "Rules as inferred (by @Maxperson )". I'm not going to buy that DnD designers "intended" for DMs to use some agglomeration of aggregate monster ability descriptions to conclude upon the fundamental forces D&D settings.. certainly not in any "rules-relevant" way.

It's intended, not inferred. I provided how they view magic in my response to Vaalingrade, and we can see it from their design of monsters and PCs. Doesn't matter whether you buy it or not, their intent is clear.

 

[Maxperson]

What is overlooked (even by myself at times) is what is mundane in our world is not necessarily the same as what is "mundane" in a fantasy world.

This isn't true. In 5e the common usage of a word in our world is what it means in 5e. For mundane to mean anything different in D&D, the definition would have to be changed and would no longer be the common usage. That's why instead of labeling a dragon's ability to fly as mundane D&D physics, they made a category for magical physics.

 

[Gammadoodler]

A DM change to RAW that violates RAI does in fact violate RAI. The designers aren't going to redesign the game around this. If they add these things, the clearly supernatural/magical abilities will be labeled as such. This has been their design method since WotC purchased D&D.

It's intended, not inferred. I provided how they view magic in my response to Vaalingrade, and we can see it from their design of monsters and PCs. Doesn't matter whether you buy it or not, their intent is clear.

First, we're not talking about a "DM" rules change here. We're talking about changes we think the designers should make.

Second, i believe I've seen you argue that DM changes to rules they don't like is RAW (e.g. centaurs shouldn't climb..even if the rules say they can).

Third, a bestiary book is about the most ludicrous place I can think of for a person to draw the conclusions for a RAI argument. It's content that is DM-facing where DMs are free to use some, all, or none of it completely at their discretion. The only "intent" at work here is to provide a tool to make DM encounter-building easier.

And last what do you think the actual "rule" is that you are taking credit for?