Casters vs. non-casters in your game.
- Thread starter Mort
- Start date
Yes, but superior players playing spell casters result in superior(er) play.
No matter how clever a fighter's player is, the character cannot fly, teleport, render themselves invisible, walk through solid matter, transport themselves into pocket universes, summon base matter from the aether, craft said matter into new and pleasing shapes rather quickly, turn their flesh into steel, steel into glass, magnesium into marzipan, etc. While some DM's make fighters roll dice to see if they can start a fire while camping.
Think of this way... in the comics, Superman and Batman are balanced because Batman is almost always right. Batman's figured everything out. Because the writers write it that way.
But in a game, there's nothing preventing Superman's player from being the one who figures everything out, makes the right preparations, from essentially contributing everything Batman can, in addition to his own Man of Steel shtick.
edit: also...
"Are you low on/out of spells?"
"Yes."
"We should rest."
... has been a part of almost every D&D campaign I've participated in. I assumed it was a standard survival tactic.
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I've seen this - but also - if the caster is low on spells (especially a high level caster) chances are the fighter is low on hitpoints too (unelss the cleric is low because he just healed up the fighter of course, same principle though).
edit: this is why I tend to see the Casters have limited resources but fighters can go all day argument as a fallacy. When the casters are low on spells fighters eithir also cannot continue (low on hitpoints) or don't want to (low on healing/buffs means such a reduced effectiveness the fighter would rather rest too).
Crothian
First Post
As a non caster I've often gone on when the wizard was out of spells. He would ask to rest and I'd go why? If he wanted to waste his spells so quickly that was his choice but we weren't going to slow down just because of that. I've found that while casters can out shine non casters on occasion if mostly happens when the non casters allow it to happen.
ThatGuyThere
Explorer
The one and only time it ever happened is when I had someone switch characters mid-adventure, and one-shot-kill my BBEG with a spell I passed the save against.
(BBEG was Fire subtype; spell was Polar Ray; a Rod of Maximize was involved; it was grizzly. I played the Sad Trombone.)
OTOH, it worked out beautifully in RP, as the party now considered this upstart newcomer an invaluable member of the team.
At all other times, when the characters have leveled together, this has not been a problem. It has been a problem for a session-or-two when running mid-to-high-level startup games ("Everyone make a 12th level character"), but even then, it quickly subsides / evens out.
However, my players and I were all aware of the on-paper possibility, and we all prefer swords to sorcery, so it might be partially by mutual consent.
(BBEG was Fire subtype; spell was Polar Ray; a Rod of Maximize was involved; it was grizzly. I played the Sad Trombone.)
OTOH, it worked out beautifully in RP, as the party now considered this upstart newcomer an invaluable member of the team.
At all other times, when the characters have leveled together, this has not been a problem. It has been a problem for a session-or-two when running mid-to-high-level startup games ("Everyone make a 12th level character"), but even then, it quickly subsides / evens out.
However, my players and I were all aware of the on-paper possibility, and we all prefer swords to sorcery, so it might be partially by mutual consent.
Dice4Hire
First Post
Simply, yes.
I have a 13ish-15ish game that has gone one for a long time now. None of the players is really hot on the rules, but the inability of the non-casters t do things they want to do (especially seperately from the party) is noticeable.
The casters can teleport, or fly or do lots of things the fighter or non-caster types cannot, and it frustrates the non-casters. Frequently, it is the paladin player who ahs a good idea, and the wizard or cleric who has to agree and make it happen.
That gets annoying fast.
I have a 13ish-15ish game that has gone one for a long time now. None of the players is really hot on the rules, but the inability of the non-casters t do things they want to do (especially seperately from the party) is noticeable.
The casters can teleport, or fly or do lots of things the fighter or non-caster types cannot, and it frustrates the non-casters. Frequently, it is the paladin player who ahs a good idea, and the wizard or cleric who has to agree and make it happen.
That gets annoying fast.
Michael Silverbane
Adventurer
In one 3.5 edition campaign that I played in, I went from playing a fighter, whose primary activity was to suffer hit point damage on behalf of the party to playing a wizard that specialized in summoning magic.
Not only did the wizard take over the role of the absented fighter, he also made (more or less) redundant the rogue and the monk in the party. The vast majority of combat encounters went from 'somewhat difficult' to 'relatively easy'.
In the same campaign (which now had two wizards and a cleric, as well as a rogue and monk) did not suffer from the fifteen minute adventuring day. We regularly went through six to eight encounters (most of which had an EL of two to three levels higher than the APL) in an in-game day.
This campaign ended with the characters at or near 14th level (I switched from fighter to wizard at 7th level).
Not only did the wizard take over the role of the absented fighter, he also made (more or less) redundant the rogue and the monk in the party. The vast majority of combat encounters went from 'somewhat difficult' to 'relatively easy'.
In the same campaign (which now had two wizards and a cleric, as well as a rogue and monk) did not suffer from the fifteen minute adventuring day. We regularly went through six to eight encounters (most of which had an EL of two to three levels higher than the APL) in an in-game day.
This campaign ended with the characters at or near 14th level (I switched from fighter to wizard at 7th level).
Scurvy_Platypus
Explorer
As a player and a GM both, I found the non-casters tended to dominate play. While I personally find amerigoV's response to be a variations on "Too bad your players are incompetent, suck it" there is a certain element of truth there: player competence _does_ have an effect. Poke around a little bit and everyone is happy to tell you how a fighter is for "beginner players" and that casters are for the more "advanced" players.
So the system from the outset is designed (or preceived to be designed) so that non-casters fundamentally have less options; it's part of what makes it "suitable" for a "beginner".
People that are playing casters tend to have a greater degree of system mastery. This combines with spells allowing casters to fulfill multiple roles, depending on the situation. These two things then interact with the nature of the game changing (according to Ryan Dancey) roughly every 5 levels.
Me?
As a player, I simply recognise that when I play 3.x, I'm going to suck because I don't feel like dealing with being a caster, and every GM freaks about something like the Tome of Battle and how "overpowered" it is.
As a GM, I don't run "normal" or "baseline" 3.x. Fighters and non-casters are eliminated as PCs. Casters are limited to 5th level and below spells. So you get a mix of fighter-mage, theif-mage etc casters, and spells that can be powerful but not a massive headache.
The answer is going to vary for every group. Some really dig the system mastery aspect, the character building game, etc. Others don't. When everyone in the group is on the same page, no problems. When they aren't, that's when you start having issues.
In my particular case, I'm actively promoting _my_ fun by short-circuiting the elements I don't enjoy. I then make sure that before a pencil hits a character sheet, everyone is fully aware of what I've done and what I'm planning on doing; I don't even try to recruit anyone that likes what I don't like about 3.x.
The fun could "happen naturally" if I and the group I'm playing/running a game for are the actual target for the default style of play of 3.x.
Yeah, it varies. I'm always amazed at how there seems to be this feeling that WotC's game, with a limited number of playtesters, is going to be applicable for millions of people to embrace and play unaltered. I mean... really?!?!
Personally, I don't take it personal that other folks don't enjoy my sort of fun. I like hairless cats, luchadors, and platypuses too; different folks dig different things. I only get annoyed when someone cops an attitude about the fact that I happen to like something different. Since I ain't forcin' 'em to play in my game, I don't really see where they get off tellin' me I'm wrong. *shrug*
I have two recurrent memories from the last moderately high level game that I ran. (My current one just got to third level.)
Druid and/or ranger casts entangle, followed by everyone shooting the not-quite helpless targets.
Enchanter casts confusion. Rest of the party sits back and watches the enemies kill each other.
Perhaps the spells were overpower, but I know I was eventually designing encounters so that "I cast entangle/confusion" was not an auto-win. I never had to do much to ensure that the ranger, fighter/paladin or barbarian could just auto-win an encounter.
Druid and/or ranger casts entangle, followed by everyone shooting the not-quite helpless targets.
Enchanter casts confusion. Rest of the party sits back and watches the enemies kill each other.
Perhaps the spells were overpower, but I know I was eventually designing encounters so that "I cast entangle/confusion" was not an auto-win. I never had to do much to ensure that the ranger, fighter/paladin or barbarian could just auto-win an encounter.
Greenfield
Adventurer
Speaking of 3.0/3.5 specifically, the answer is yes, at certain levels.
Fighters lead the pack in low levels. At about level 5, when the big-boom spells start to come into play, the tide begins to shift. By level 10 the spell casters own the field, and the fighter types serve meat-shield duty.
And yes, I've seen the 15 minute adventuring day. Spell casters invoke godlike powers of destruction for a single encounter, after which the party knows that they can't face another encounter like that without that godlike power, which won't be back until they've rested.
So rest, rinse, repeat.
At higher levels, the spell casters end up with better AC and defenses in general, can deal mass damage at a greater range than the fighter types can affect, plus they can do all sorts of non-kaboom stuff as well.
Fighters lead the pack in low levels. At about level 5, when the big-boom spells start to come into play, the tide begins to shift. By level 10 the spell casters own the field, and the fighter types serve meat-shield duty.
And yes, I've seen the 15 minute adventuring day. Spell casters invoke godlike powers of destruction for a single encounter, after which the party knows that they can't face another encounter like that without that godlike power, which won't be back until they've rested.
So rest, rinse, repeat.
At higher levels, the spell casters end up with better AC and defenses in general, can deal mass damage at a greater range than the fighter types can affect, plus they can do all sorts of non-kaboom stuff as well.
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