Casting Sleep in the surprise round

[Vurt]

What happens when the party wizard starts casting sleep or begins trying to get off a summon monster I in the surprise round?

Sleep has a 1 round casting time, and you can only take a standard action in the surprise round, but it seems rather nonsensical to me to say you can't start casting certain spells with the benefit of surprise.

If it is possible, when does the spell go off?

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Paraxis]

By RAW I would say that you can't cast a full round casting time spell during a round that you get only a partial action. But, I would house rule that the caster must devote his next rounds move action to casting the spell and that after that move action (in wich she did nothing but finish casting) the spell would go off and the caster would have a standard action in wich to do something.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Sleep has a 1 round casting time, and you can only take a standard action in the surprise round, but it seems rather nonsensical to me to say you can't start casting certain spells with the benefit of surprise.

That's true, it would be nonsensical. Fortunately, there's a RAW solution:

Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.

So, you start the spell in the surprise round and finish it after spending a second standard action during your turn in the first whole round. You get another Move Action that turn, after the spell completes.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.

Cast a Spell
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.

Strictly as written, we have an interesting situation.

We take the Start Full Round Action standard action in the surprise round, to begin the Cast a Spell full round action. Thus, the round we began casting the spell is the surprise round.

The spell comes into effect just before the beginning of our turn in the round after that - that is, round 1.

Then, after the spell comes into effect, we must complete the Cast a Spell full round action by taking the Complete Full Round Action standard action in our turn in round 1. At that point, the spell is completed, and we can act normally.

The paradox occurs if we are somehow prevented from taking that Complete Full Round Action standard action in round 1 - the spell has already come into effect, but the casting has not been completed.

In order to avoid paradox, my personal ruling would be that in this situation, the spell comes into effect at the conclusion of the Complete Full Round Action standard action, rather than before it

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Not a paradox really. The Start/Complete Full-Round Action modifies the way the full-round action works. Just because it does not explicitly mention every full-round action that it modifies does not mean it would create a paradox. Your ruling is undoubtedly identical to everyone else's ruling because that's the way the Start/Complete Full-Round Action is worded.

However, the question I would have is on subsequent rounds, when does the Summoned Monster act? At the beginning of your turn, at some point in the middle, or at the end?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Not a paradox really. The Start/Complete Full-Round Action modifies the way the full-round action works. Just because it does not explicitly mention every full-round action that it modifies does not mean it would create a paradox.

But the Cast a Spell full round action states that the spell comes into effect after you begin casting, not after you complete casting. In most cases, you complete casting before the time at which the spell comes into effect. But when you use the Start/Complete pair, you complete casting after the time at which the spell comes into effect.

Your ruling is undoubtedly identical to everyone else's ruling because that's the way the Start/Complete Full-Round Action is worded.

The Start/Complete tells us that we complete the action (Cast a Spell) in the next round, but it also tells us that we begin the action in the surprise round, and it's from the beginning of the action that the spell coming into effect is determined.

It's far from the only example of an action having some sort of effect before it is completed - see the Full Attack action, or even a move action, for other cases where you can be partway through an action and already see a result.

However, the question I would have is on subsequent rounds, when does the Summoned Monster act? At the beginning of your turn, at some point in the middle, or at the end?

'On your turn', just like any other summoned monster

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

'On your turn', just like any other summoned monster

-Hyp.

Okay, pretend you're an expert witness (I happen to be in jury duty at the moment), and you have to answer the question explicitly.

Regarding the other paradox, I disagree. I understand your point, but I think the modification of the action is just not clear for every case (meaning that the special caveat for a full round spell is not handled). Bringing up the full attack doesn't help, because you can't use start/complete with it.

 

[Vurt]

Thanks, everyone, for steering me in the right direction.

And as for the rules paradox, that's easily enough sidestepped.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[lukelightning]

I never noticed that sleep has a 1 round casting time. Man, it sucks even more! By the time you've finished casting it you're probably dead or the enemies are not where you want them to bel

 

[3d6]

You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

While I'm not arguing that sleep is any good, you normally won't have to worry about the enemies moving.