Castles and Crusades (NDA is lifted - ask questions, get answers)

[Qlippoth]

Anyway, I bought the boxed set for the unique reason it reminds me so much of the original D&D boxed set (that I once owned). In fact, what I would love, would be that the C&C Player's Handbook would be called "Advanced Castle & Crusades", and would feature a cover art and interior layout reminiscing of the 1e AD&D books, the first printings... Well, I can still dream.

Urge to collect...rising...

 

[Jackal42]

You're forgetting the CK's modifiers. If there is some reason the rogue should have a hard time climbing that wall then you can make it rough on him. But, yes, a 12th level rogue is going to be able to climb a normal wall pretty much all the time where as a 1st level rogue might had to try a time or two. But, for me, that's how it should be anyway.

But when you get into something deeper (and more important) like disarming a trap the level increases with the character. The difficulty for disarming a trap, for instance, is 12/18 + trap creator's level + any CK modifier. So more difficult traps are going to be more difficult to disarm. I love the 12/18 mechanic for task resolution, but of course some won't...that's just how it is.

And with the use of primes there is less reason for a player to try and "cheat" to get better stats. In fact, under C&C, I was testing a druid and for the first time in my life I didn't care that his wisdom was only a 12. I simply made it prime so his natural ability with wisdom (prime or not prime) is very good but his formal development (the actual attribute) is only slightly above average. The C&C attribute and prime system allows stats to stay important but removes any real reason for a player to want to power game his actual stat scores. I love that.

 

[RFisher]

Re: Trip, Disarm, &c.: C&C is a compromise here. It gives you something to go on, but--as usual--it doesn't go into great detail & expects the CK to be able to run with it.

I explain attribute checks this way:

d20 + character level + attribute mod >= base difficulty + difficulty level

Base difficulty is 12 if the attribute is prime, otherwise 18.

A 4th level rogue with a 18 Dex (prime) picking a 2nd level lock:

d20 + 4 (rogue level) + 3 (Dex mod) >= 12 (base diff.) + 2 (lock level)

So, the player needs to roll 7 or better.

For play, you can do algebra on the formula to get the elements on the side you want. Some people basically run it d20 >= base diff + diff level - char level - attr mod. Some people run it d20 + char level + attr mod - base diff >= diff level.

As for the difference between a rogue climbing & a fighter climbing: As far as I recall the rules don't explicitly address this, & that is probably a good thing since every referee has their own opinion on how that is handled. So no matter what they put in there, the majority would probably hate &/or ignore it. I'd be happy to share my own thoughts on the matter if anyone cared.

Which brings up another point: It is my impression that the PHB isn't intended to teach a newbie referee how to be a CK. The book expects the CK is experienced or has other resources to call upon.

 

[McBard]

Roleplaying question regarding prime attributes: what are some possible character backstories explaining the difference between a character with a Str 10 (+0) who chooses Str as a prime attribute and a character with a Str 18 (+3) who does not choose Str as a prime attribute? You'll note that the first will always have a better base chance of succeeding on Strength saves (TN 12 against essentially TN 15).

All of this is just a minor sticking-point for me, and I'm wondering how some of you might explain the apparent contradiction (i.e. little guy being better at tests of strength than the big bruiser).

 

[Levitacus]

BARD
HD as Fighter, Attack as Ranger, slightly restricted wpns and armour.
Decipher Script
Exalt
Legend Lore
Facinate
Exhort Greatness


Looking at the Bard class skills, could you add a bit of explanation? I'm particularly interested in Exalt, Fascinate and Exhort Greatness. I actually just retired my 3.5 Bard and started with a new Rogue because I got really tired of the old "I play my jaunty tune so everyone gets +1" act. My DM is very down on 3.5 and was looking for a new system to convert to and C&C is exactly the style he was talking about trying to find. Add the fact that it also seems to line up with how we both felt a Bard should be developed and I think we may have a new system with my Bard making a return

 

[Jackal42]

You'll find that most often players will make their highest stats prime anyway. And they will amost never make their lowest stats prime. So it's not very difficult to come up with a background for those attributes and the primes.

A prime is generally thought of as your level of natural talent while each attribute is the level to which you have devloped yourself in that area over the years. So the Str 10 prime is the character who has never bothered to work out or develope his muscles. In fact, he probably hasn't even done much in the way of hard labor in his life. But, ever since he was a young boy, people always talked about his great strength. Even at a young age he was easily able to perform feats of strength that his older brother found very difficult.

Now your character with the 18 str that isn't prime is one who has little natural inclination towards physical strength but has (maybe in an attempt to compensate for that) always worked out and done his best to augment his muscles. So he's quite strong but he just doesn't have the type of body which takes to feats of strength.

I think most of us will agree that natural talent is often better than those who just work hard at a skill. Now, of course, the best of the best are those who have both. So C&C requires you to look at stats slightly different than in the past but it's not a big leap and it's a good one in my eyes.

As for the bard, this is a character class that C&C has almost reinvented. It still tries to depict the same sort of learned storyteller but it gives you more freedom in how you see this character.

Exalt allows the bard to give allies a +2 bonus to most any non-attack roll for a short period of time. How the bard does this is up to the character but some examples are song, battle cries, oration, etc.

Fascinate allows the bard to entrance a single creature and, as the bard increases in levels so too does the power. So the bard is able to hold a single creature's attention at first and, later, is even able to suggest certain actions to that creature (or person).

Exhort Greatness is a bit like exalt but it is more combat oriented and has more bonuses. I'd equate it to raising a battle lust (though it doesn't drive one into an unthinking frenzy or anything).

So, as you can see, the bard has some of the same functions as he always has but quite a few more applications a well. And with the Legend Lore ability which is "a little knowledge about a little of everything" the bard is a great addition to any party.

But you'll also find that the bard has d10 hit points, an attack progression equal to some warriors, and a decent choice of weapons and armor. So this makes him quite the capable secondary warrior as well. If you think of the bard as the scalds of the norsemen then you're right on track (at least that's how I think of the default C&C bard).

 

[trollwad]

thinking of primes

Here is a simple example of how I personally have always internalized what primes MEAN. Ive been very active in judo, brazilian jiujitsu etc for about 7 years and I weigh about 210 with a developing mid-30s paunch. I joined a group with a 20-year old guy about 6'3", 245, 100% muscle, with arms the size of my thighs, who'd only been doing it for about a year. Despite his natural strength, Id crush this monster every day for about 6 months to a year. However, I and others started teaching him how to USE his amazing natural strength better. At that point, something clicked and this guy became unstoppable and basically my match with him now is me simply trying to survive and not get hurt for a few minutes.

Think of me having a 13 str with a str prime and a few levels of exp. Think of the guy having an 18 str when he started, with no prime and level 1. Later, he had an 18 str, a str prime and some experience. Think of what contested strength roles would look like at first and then later.

Anyways, thats how I always rationalized primes

 

[Joseph Elric Smith]

Give in to the urge you will feel better.
ken

Urge to collect...rising...

 

[McBard]

Thanks for your examples, Trollwad and Jackal42. I'd kind of like to follow up on both your replies, because they interestingly give opposing explanations it seems [btw, I'm very "pro-C&C"; so don't take the following as a rant].

First, Jackal42 said that

a prime is generally thought of as your level of natural talent, while each attribute is the level to which you have devloped yourself in that area over the years.

That is, you're born with the prime att, and you develope the actual attribute number through experience.

On the other hand, Trollwad said

think of the guy having an 18 str when he started, with no prime and level 1. Later, he had an 18 str, a str prime and some experience.

This seems to posit the opposite of Jackal42's take on it by saying that you're born with your attribute number, and then develop your prime through experience.

Question to playtesters (or those who have access to actual C&C rules): Do characters have the chance to add a prime attribute as they gain experience levels, or are these set at character creation? If they are set at character creation, then it seems Jackal42's take on the situation more reflects the rules.

If so, then I guess I still feel like there's a glitch (a roleplaying glitch, mind you) in trying to conceive of a Str 10 character with a Strength prime attribute. I guess I respectfully don't buy Jackal42's example of the 10 Str farm boy with underdeveloped muscles who can still somehow perform great feats of strength (outside of a "rage" or "magical" explanation--which I assume would be covered by other rules). As a narrative, this just doesn't make sense to me.

It just strikes me that there should probably be a prerequisite minimum for an attribute before it can be a prime attribute. Perhaps 13 or 14--I'm not really sure (maybe even a 15). Obviously, given C&C's great element of mutability, I will be able to house rule it this way--sure. But what do others thinks of this?
Thanks for your feedback.

 

[nicodaudel]

Re: Primes

Just one more take on this question . . . I wouldn't say a STR 10 (Prime) character is a paradox. Rather, his natural ability (STR 10) is not the equivalent of what his proclivity (Primeness) might be. Ability is all well and good, but it's not enough to capture how (in)effective someone might turn out to be in this or that situation.

That said, the system can easily be modified to suit your preferences, whether that be X scores for race and/or class, a new, non-12/18 method for dealing with Primes, or anything else.

-Dion