Castles and DnD

[gizmo33]

One thing I do IMC is make catapults and ballistae a lot more effective, so they can be detterent to small dragons and such

IMO catapults are indirect fire machines and rely on the target being fairly stationary. I would say that chances of hitting a flying creature with a catapult is about zero. Ballistae on the other hand is probably where I'd go IMC.

 

[gizmo33]

In fact a spiky roof is probably a good idea vs climbing Rogues, too. Compartmentalise the castle interior to minimise effects from area-effect attacks. Obviously don't have windows that can be climbed through.

This is an interesting idea. Modern technology like razor wire and spikes and such could go a long way. Maybe just something rolled out for sieges.

 

[Celebrim]

In fact a spiky roof is probably a good idea vs climbing Rogues, too.

The problem with spiky roofs is that except against very clumsy fliers, all the spikes simply mean is that its much easier to hang on to or perch on the roof - either for the rogue or a grappling hook. Now, slanted slippery roofs on the other hand...

 

[D+1]

Does it make sense that people would build castles in a DnD world? If your answer is no, what changes do you think should be made to restore the castle as a sensible style of fortification?

What I would be looking for would be the least amount of change - castles should look and act as close to real historical castles as possible. The DnD magic system should work as close to it's original conception as possible.

The two ideas are utterly incompatible. You CANNOT have real-world castles as truly sensible fortifications in a setting where D&D magic works anywhere close to the original conception. The best you could do is to assume D&D magic as we know it as a very recent innovation and thus castles would be effectively relics of a bygone era. The new era of magic doesn't yet have meaningful rules regarding effective stronghold construction so your choices would be to either try something wild based on one's own estimations of what is needed and will work, or to use the same guidelines as have always been used for lack of anything better. The latter at least still has the advantage of being highly effective against intrusion by NON-magic-wielding enemies.

It seems that as a castle's vulnerabilities were discovered, new methods were developed to counter them. Can the same be done in DnD?

You could try but it would be a purely intellectual excercise as you couldn't come to reliable conclusions about what changes would be made over the centuries, when they would be made, and why.

Is this a lost cause?

For practical purposes/general application, yes.

One of the reasons that a lot of effort HASN'T been put into re-envisioning what a D&D stronghold ought to look like is that one of the fixtures of fantasy IS castles and keeps. For the same reasons that dragons aren't supposed to be able to fly a castle is a foolish construction to build in a world with a full-blown spread of D&D-type magic. But we still have dragons, not because they make sense, but because we want them anyway. Same with castles - they don't make sense but for the most part we want them anyway.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Does it make sense that people would build castles in a DnD world?

Yes, for various reasons. 1) magical foes are not the norm: big creatures with teeth or lots of humanoids with pointy sticks are. 2) tax collection, primarily at river crossings, mountain passes, and other choke points. 3)Communication (what, no heliograph or carrier pigeons in your world?!?) 4)Nobles gots to sleep somewhere and it's dang well gonna be niftier than the merchants' houses!

This tends to refine castles to two sizes: cheap places to house soldiers and drive off small orc hordes and big expensive fortresses that can withstand siegies.

A simple tower keep with an earthen wall is sufficient to provide an outpost against a lot of humanoid activity and house a fighting force able to deal with the abherrations and magical beasts that rear their ugly heads. The keep should only need to hold position for 2 days, tops, before relief arrives.

Here's a list of possible changes (or codification of things I already do IMC):

1. Lower the cost - assume magic plays a role in key areas to accomplish this. Perhaps 30,000 gp for a shell keep, up to 250,000 gp for a large castle.

Nahhh, I like keeps to be rare and expensive. Two reasons: requires players to shell out major coin and co-opt an entire town to build a castle over a few years and it reinforces the status of anyone with a keep.

2. Develop special materials, as suggested by others on another post:
a. lead shielding for certain key rooms to protect against scrying and teleport. Create house rule that 80% shielding is sufficient.
3. A mostly stone construction, specially treated wood, roofs of clay - would those be sufficient to protect against fireballs?

I don't think a house rule is necessary. 90% of a castle does not need to be immune to teleportation; just the main keep. simple towers would get lead-lined walls out of expediency, probably with the lead at half the wall's thickness to really irritate anyone trying to stoneshape their way into the castle.

Fortresses, which are expensive as sin and have massive defenses, rely on the primary walls being multi-layer, consisting of stone, earth, sand, and wood with occassional 1' gaps between the walls. Why 1' gaps? To stop the disintigrate, dig/tunnel/stoneshape spells of course! Same thing goes for the mixed materials. Use of earth and sand will cause cave-ins that fill in some of those holes. Expect various moderately cheap, semi-permanent magical defenses, especially if they are mobile (e.g. Hallow+Dispel Magic or a Symbol engraved on a mobile banner)

The fortress's inner keep will be set up with the lead walls and will also be Hallowed with some defensive effect (90' radius invisibility purge or negative dimensional anchor is quite nice!). Use of the nightengale floors, bead curtains, rice paper floor-runners (makes noise and leaves marks), and the like are all likely candidates.

4. Castle chaplain - mid level cleric with responsibility for glyphs of warding and other wards.

Almost definitely. Any noble worth their salt will have a temple within their keep. It means the noble has healing magic immediately accessible, is probably within the temple's Hallow (what, every temple with a cleric isn't re-Hallowed annually in a celebration?), and causes anyone who attacks the castle to gather the ire of the temple's religion.

5. Specially trained hounds to detect invisible creatures?

Hounds are good, creatures with blindsight are decent too. I'd also factor in trained falcons, owls, and/or bats. Bats? Sure, they can fly and see invisible creatures. Train the bats to swarm airborne people without attacking and then pepper the 5' volume with arrows.

Also update the siege engines. Notice there's nothing using alchemist fire? A simple catapult can fire a barrel, if the barrel is filled with oil and has a small amount of alchemist fire as an ignition system you can easily destroy formations. Trick barrels with rope wrapped around them that unwinds while the barrels in flight would create a rain of flaming oil over a much larger area.

Oh, and siege engines should be behind the walls with 100% cover: no fireballing the oil-slinging catapult.

 

[gizmo33]

It doesn't make sense to copy the fortifications of medieval castles exactly and expect them to have the same cost benefits in a world filled with magic and which single warriors are capable of fighting off small armies.

I agree. I'm trying to get as close as I can get. My campaign is fairly low magic, so in some ways I have it easier, and in some ways not.

 

[John Morrow]

Does it make sense that people would build castles in a DnD world? If your answer is no, what changes do you think should be made to restore the castle as a sensible style of fortification?

In my assessment, stockades, towers, keeps, and castles would still be built to defend againt routine threats (basic monsters and hostile humaniods armed wit conventional weapons) but the nobility, weathy, and mages build dungeons to hide in when things really get bad, much as various Cold War governments built nuclear bunkers for their leaders and military. Once the death-dealing castle-cracking magic users show up, the battle has "gone nuclear" and the leaders retreat to their bunkers to sit it out or they run. The really paranoid (e.g., crazy wizards) may retreat into their bunkers entirely to live. And as an added benefit, this provides a great reason for why there are dungeons littering the countryside. They were bunkers for the rich and famous.

For the modern inspiration, see:

http://www.strategic-air-command.com/missiles/Titan/Titan_I_Missile_complex.htm
http://triggur.org/silo/site.html
http://triggur.org/silo/site.html
http://www.missilebases.com/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/sfeature/floorplan.html

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

In constructing a D&D castle I would definitely do away with the open concept courtyard... it makes it just too easy for flying enemies to attack your forces inside the courtyard or land and enter the castle interior. More of a Norman keep style of castle might be better off. The walls and roof overhead also provide cover and shelter from casual observation.

A D&D castle might also revolve more around offense over defense than a traditional castle would. Perhaps having extraplanar creatures (the details being worked out beforehand) on call to assist when the castle is attacked might be a good strategy. Given time and opportunity a spellcaster can bypass pretty much any defense. But if you take the fight to the spellcaster(s) and keep them occupied, then you stand a much better chance of defeating them.

Perhaps a radar-like detect magic spell that is always active might be an option as well. I can definitely see a "radar room" deep inside the castle where specially trained troops monitor the castle and surrounding area for even the slightest change in magic.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Actually, Gizmo, while there are many ruined castles, there are also many that are virtually pristine. The reason is that after cannon became fully developed, you almost never had a castle involved in a seige. What was a strongpoint became just another target. Instead of holing up in the keep, forces had to disperse or be smashed.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

I would have to say that ultimately, in D&D as in the real world, a defensive fortification is only as strong as its defenders.