Castles of Crystal, Wars of Genocide!

SHARK

First Post
Greetings!

Castles of Crystal, Wars of Genocide!

It has occured to me that many people are apprehensive about epic level play. I don't really see why there is so much trepidation, for it seems to flow naturally from the rules. What have you done to transition the party into epic-level play? What problems have you encountered with epic level play? I have heard some complain that various aspects make the players too powerful to challenge, and the game collapses. I have not really encountered this phenomenon, and seem to have a firm grasp of high level campaigning. Perhaps this can be a discussion of the better approaches to high-level play, and the dangers to look out for, and ways of solving problems that arise for the dm running an epic level campaign. In addition, of course, questions about how to set up and run high level campaigns can be fielded by myself and others. Dive in my friends! As many long time members know, I have been running a high-level campaign for many years, and have epic warfare and all kinds of crazy strangeness going on in my world!:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

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I think the problem with many campaigns, both homebrewed and published, SHARK, is that they simply aren't built to handle games of that level range. Even when there are people of levels beyond 20, they tend to be exceptions rather than the rule.

You seemed to build your campaign world with epic levels in mind from the start. A 20th level character who might be a king on another's world, from what it sounded like, might be a middle aged guard captain in Vallorea, a half celestial to boot, and not be considered unusual at all.

There isn't anything wrong with that, and I've always thought your world was particularly suited to high level play, as well as designed specifically be that way.

However, if I started throwing the kind of challenges your PCs face every day at my group once they hit past 20th level, it would be completely inconsistent. Why wouldn't any of these shocking creatures have been heard from before, why do armies suddenly have numbers in the millions. My world wasn't designed with Epic levels being common, and I redoing it in the middle of a campaign is...well, bad for the flavour. Therein, I think, lies the problem with epic level play for most groups.

Here's a question I've pondered while looking through your threads previously though. What is it like being a low level character in your world? Most of what I've seen and heard was a view from the top. What are beginnings like?


Edit: Just cleaning up the post a bit
 
Last edited:

Volaran said:
I think the problem with many campaigns, both homebrewed and published, SHARk, is that they simply aren't built to handle games of that degree. Even when there are people of levels beyond 20, they tend to be exceptions rather than the rule.

You seemed to build your campaign world with epic levels in mind from the start. A 20th level character who might be a king on another's world, from what it sounded like, might be a middle aged guard captain in Vallorea, a half celestial to boot, and not be considered unusual at all.

There isn't anything wrong with that, and I've always thought your world was particularly suited to high level play, well designed to suit it.

However, if I started throwing the kind of challenges your PCs face every day at my group once they hit past 20th level, it would be completely inconsistent. Why wouldn't any of these shocking creatures have been heard from before, why do armies suddenly have numbers in the millions. My world wasn't designed with Epic levels being common, and I redoing it in the middle of a campaign is...well, bad for the flavour. Therein, I think, lies the problem with epic level play for most groups.

Well put, Volaran. You've just won my vote for brainiest poster on ENWorld.

I always wondered why Epic-Level play seemed so natural in SHARK's Vallorea campaign, and why it always felt like it would be out of place in mine, though I could never put my finger on it.

Here's a question I've pondered while looking through your threads previously though. What is it like being a low level character in your world? Most of what I've seen and heard was a view from the top. What are beginnings like?

I'd like to know myself. It seems that, in an Epic-Level setting, 6th-7th level characters are the ones marching into battle in infantry divisions and arresting drunken tavern-brawlers.

In my campaign, otoh, a 7th level character is viewed with some awe by teh masses, and is likely very influential on a local level.
 

In all my years of gaming, I've never run any characters higher than 12th (both player and DM).

What I've done with every campaign I've started was just start all the PCs out at 1st level. Unfortunately, none of my campaigns have reach fruition where the characters are high levels.

And every campaign I've played in has been short lived for various reasons. The highest level of character I've ever played was 9th. He was a fighter with 18/00 Strength. His name was Ulrick :D .

But I want to so bad to play in a high level game. Yet I also kinda want to "build up" to it first.
 

Greetings!

Mark: Indeed, I got your e-mail. It's good to hear from you! I wrote you just this evening as a matter of fact! I'll write you again on the morrow!:)

Volaran:

Posted By Volaran
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Quote:

"Here's a question I've pondered while looking through your threads previously though. What is it like being a low level character in your world? Most of what I've seen and heard was a view from the top. What are beginnings like?"
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End Quote.

Hmmm...good insight Volaran!:) Indeed, I suppose I have created my campaign assuming epic levels rather than avoiding them. Let me think...indeed, I believe that I make the founding premise that 1st level "anything" doesn't really cut it, to be honest. That doesn't mean that there aren't any 1st level whatevers existing through the campaign, for of course, they are there in great number--everyone who is 8th, 12th, 20th, and even 50th level all began, at some point in time, as a 1st level character.

Now, having said that, when I look over the skill ranks and abilities of a 1st level character, whether they are a commoner, expert, fighter, cleric, wizard, and so on, I just don't accept the popular assumption that 90% or what not of a population are 1st level, or certainly no higher than 3rd. It seems to me that for anyone to be any good at living in such a harsh, magic-filled, violent world, let alone be actually decent at a real profession, one doesn't reach that point until somewhere between 4th-8th level. Now, before you bite your cigar my friend,:)--by this I don't mean *necessarily* a character that seeks to max out one skill at every level disregarding virtually everything else, for indeed, the system's base assumptions provide for such sufficiently. However, it isn't merely when I think of a fairly seasoned, professional character, but I cannot simulate a highly educated, highly skilled knight for example at 1st level--the skill ranks just don't allow it. A point of reference to Snoweel's remarks, is that for example, when I build a typical Vallorean Legionnaire, say, a young farm boy fresh off the farm, and a skilled hunter, who has joined the Legions at the age of 18, and has been serving for two years. So now, at the age of 20, I see this young legionnaire being likely to have *these* feats, *these minimum skill ranks of competency, usually in the 2-5 range in a group of skills beyond swimming and climbing* and *this* general level of professional effectiveness simulating a young legionnaire who has roughly 10 years of experience hunting, farming, and living self-sufficiently, and has spent the last two years of his life training constantly in the best army on the western continent, as well as surviving two six-month campaigns in the field against a variety of evil humanoid enemies. Ok, when I add it all up, the "avaerage" legionnaire comes out at somewhere between 6th and 8th level, with the younger more rawer soldiers being about 4th level.

Now, a question might be asked, "Well, why can't a 1st level warrior or even a 1st level fighter be the standard soldier of the empire?" With that, we get into a tangent premise on my part, but a related one. That premise is this, essentially: It doesn't seem to me that with the magical elements in the game, the demons, the beasts, the hordes of monsters, the magic everywhere, that anyone would be able to do much of anything at 1st level. In truth, if a kingdom did have a host of 1st level warriors, half of them would die in the first year, while the other half changed and became 6th level fighters!:) I just don't see 1st level characters essentially representing realistic characters that can survive in the stereotypical world as typified by a basic thorough application of the rules and most of their assumptions. In some ways, there are a host of other assumptions that contradict a few of the assumptions for example the population guages in the Dungeon Master's Guide.

Well, it is then from these two related assumptions that if a kingdom, a society, where to survive and prosper, they wouldn't be entrusting that security and progress to 1st level people. Thus, the people would really be greater level than that, as a matter of course. I don't see trained, adult characters being 1st level. Especially inexperienced, untrained, uneducated teenagers, sure. But given a year or two as a trained adult, and they should be in the 3rd-5th level range with ease.

Ok, I think I'm being laborious. I apologize. What does all this mean though? It means that recruits, apprentices, and basicly trained people--whether a beer girl at the tavern, a young scribe at the library, or a young recruit in the city watch, is about 4th level. Most adults busy doing a profession of some kind, again, whether a merchant or a legionnaire, are probably in the 7th-10th level range. experienced officers, well-seasoned merchants, and so on, can expect to be in the 12th-16th level range, with lords, really experienced masters, and so on, being 16th-25th level or so. Great kings, mighty lords, champions, renowned craftsmen, would of course be approximately 26th level and higher.

Ok, I think I detailed that well enough.:) In my campaigns, most people seem to advance pretty quickly from 1st level to 4th level before things seem to taper off a bit, so I think that low level characters have a wild time. It is a magical, highly dangerous world, and the only way to survive it is to get out of the cellar, so to speak.:) Characters of below 4th level, in that sense, either die, or move on up, because there isn't much use in society at any level for someone who, somehow for example, wanted to "stay 2nd level." They are either learning, growing, and making dynamic progress, or they starve or become a beggar for example. Let's say there was someone who was a 3rd level fighter, and he never wanted to advance beyond that. Such a character would be seen as an idiot, like Gomer Pyle, lacking in the essentials to serve in the legions, he would probably be scratching out some kind of existence as a low-paid caravan guard, or grow old as a low-wage night watchman paid to guard warehouses at night down by the docks, or maybe a fetch-boy on some arm-pit frontier outpost that is in the sticks somewhere off the beaten path and can't afford to hire real soldiers to protect them, so they get the retarded, the senile, the incompetent, the maladjusted, the druggies, alcoholics, or just the lazy and ambitionless; those shiftless bits of flotsam that seek to wallow in utter mediocrity, just getting by with the bare minimum of effort and responsibility.:)

Thus, young characters are in demand, but they have to keep moving, and get with the program to establish themselves with any kind of real ability to survive. There is a high turnover rate, and a high attrition rate in many professions and lines of work, so there is always a demand for more talent. Young characters have to keep up with the pace, with the dangers of the world, or even the rigors of the big city may roll over them. The wheels and caravans of industry and trade cannot wait while some 2nd level character hems and haws, so to speak, you know?:)

In truth though, looking at it from a young, low-level character's vantage point in my campaigns, well, there aren't dragons around every corner, but evil humanoids are a fairly regular occurrence. Wizard terrorists being hunted and blown out of some fortified tower in the wealthy port district of the big city isn't an uncommon sight. Folk can often see a grim witch hunter dragging a young woman to the stake to burn her alive, for she has been found guilty of fornicating with demons. Now, perhaps as a young farm boy, you may, or may not, realise with certainty that your neighbor's cows died from a plague given to them by evil sprites serving the demon that has seduced the young girl. Or that Mr. Branneck, over the river there, last week went berzerk and killed his wife and four children with a pitchfork after catching his wife in the arms of that handsome wandering riverboat labourer, that, naturally, disappeared the next day after being discovered with the young wife. Indeed, the demon likes to take the form of a handsome stranger...
It's a rugged life that a young character enters the world in, and if they are lucky, they can either live a long, hard life, working away dilligently; a long life of heroism and glory; or a short, violent life being stomped into the mud and devoured.:)

Snoweel, I believe that you wanted the same question answered, so I hope this works.

So, what do you guys think?

How's that sound for the early lives of young, low-level characters?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

PS--Ulrick, there you are! Hey, e-mail me! You really need to get into a high-level campaign!:)
 

Well, that was a well rounded, and far more thorough answer than expected. Typically SHARK, and I thank you for it.

I think you've nailed down perhaps why your world seems the most logical as far as high fantasy goes. As you mentioned with the Vallorean legionnaire, you've figured out what you want them to be capable of and then assign levels, feats, ect.

This differs from the assumption that I feel most settings are built with. That a 1st-3rd level character is the norm with perhaps professionals being a few levels higher.

I've noted from other threads of yours that this isn't the only different way that you've approached things. As I recall, you've mentioned things like PCs from families with extensive history as leading mages of nations starting out and being able to tap those reasources, as one example.

It isn't exactly that your game has a higher magic level than typical D&D, so far as it follows a more logical progression of a long standing society with levels of magic that rival the technologies of our own world in scope. The huge armies you've described, heck even the populations in general begin to make more sense when it is all considered as a whole. Limitless agriculture through magic can maintain a very large population no doubt...and well, since things like that never stay completely protected, similarly threatening populations of undead, humanoids, ect make more sense as well.

Now, you're mention of the legionnaire interests me. Would the "real career" of the characters not start until then?

The entire dynamic of a world would certainly change if a player character mage just off his apprenticeship, or a cleric just out of seminary could cast third level spells, a legionnaire back from training with some time off access to those kinds of experiences and techiques...

An adventuring party on most worlds would take a much longer time to accumulate stimulating experiences out in the field. Whether it be combat, research, ect. The sheer amount of threatening creatures in an average game world just aren't present the way they are in your campaign, the level of magic is often recovering from a state of days long past, rather than well established and researched.

Even the standard Vallorean from your desciptions seems a bit marshall, but I can just imagine the levels of competition required to keep up. A wizard isn't much use to a guild until he's experienced enough to research and break new ground, a legionnaire who doesn't gain learn quickly and keep learning quickly will be ground under by the forces of evil...and this is all before they reach the point of being the movers and shakers of the land, if I've understood correctly.

I understand that there will usually be bases of support for characters to draw on, otherwise such a world seems almost visciously darwinian. I think that may be the key to it all. A properly designed high fantasy world will just be inherently a lot busier than your average campaign setting.

For instance, a regular campaign might involve plots in the DM revolving around certain creatures. So, if orcs, fey, and perhaps a few specific demons are involved in his long term plans, so he'll take the standard ideas for a middle ages-ish D&D world, make sure the magic and resources all around are only enough for this to be challenging but not impossible for the PCs.

For a world with high power incorporated...you can't do that. You have to work on a macro level. I'd wager every monster that isn't actively in use in your campaign world somewhere would slip in easily without much work. Where the gods eyes are truely turned on the world, and have been for so long, when fiends, celestials and things even more fantastical stride the lands, of course half breeds will be common and handled by long standing precident. The level span makes sense in that scenario. In fact, the level span is the least of things that make sense in that scenario that would in fact be too fantastical for a standard D&D campaign to take without things rapidly spiraling out of control.

Now, for a DM interested in this, but who doesn't have any idea how to impliment it, I begin to see ways. The players could be there for early days, the mythical time for such a world. When magic has begun to reach the realms of epic spells, perhaps through the instigation even of the PC wizard. More and more extra-planar eyes turn towards the world. Beasts long slumbering waken, or perhaps form spontaneously from the sheer power of the magic being wielded for the first time. Dark forces could look into the night and percieve allies and sources of power that they never knew were there, that weren't there until their rock in the cosmos became important.

Suddenly it wouldn't be a singular occurance for a farm girl to be seduced by an incubus, a ruler to slide into the corrupting influence of dark gods, hoards of orcs once thought subdued arising in new numbers with fiendish blood in their veins. Under such pressure, the populace of the world would need to learn to adapt, to become better than they were before the shadows sweep them away. Naturally, players in such an age already on the verge of epic stature would be natural leaders in such dark times. They could be the ones who push true evil back the first time and build an legacy to last a thousand years. After all, places like Vallorea were founded by someone, right?

Ah well. Please forgive the guesses about your world if they're very far off. Some of your descriptions just got the mental juices flowing. Thanks again for the marvelous reply.
 

The fact that Characters in SHARKs world have an other occupation than "adventurer" might be part of his succes in running an epic game. There is actually a task for the high level characters. 20th level characters are not the people who clean out the local dungeon, they prepare to assault the prince of darkness himself.

Purpose and place for a high level character (or any character over about level 15) is very important as the things they do affect the world more than a 4th level character would.

Even by very mundane things, for example: the followers/bagage train of a high level character could triple Homletts population over night, adventurers can disrupt the local economy by just travelling around.
 

SHARK said:

Now, having said that, when I look over the skill ranks and abilities of a 1st level character, whether they are a commoner, expert, fighter, cleric, wizard, and so on, I just don't accept the popular assumption that 90% or what not of a population are 1st level, or certainly no higher than 3rd. It seems to me that for anyone to be any good at living in such a harsh, magic-filled, violent world, let alone be actually decent at a real profession, one doesn't reach that point until somewhere between 4th-8th level.

This is an important point. It probably needs to be outlined at the start of every campaign what levels people from different walks of life fit into, so that the players and GM know where the PC’s fit into the bigger scheme of things. I recommend checking out Seasong’s story hour and associated website for a great exposition of this. Personally in my campaign (when I get back to GM’ing it ) the vast majority of people fit within levels 1-3. People of level 6+ are special and characters of levels in double figures are of a calibre beyond normal people. Soccer is a good metaphor (or any international sport really, but I’ll use soccer ). Players at international level for the top countries or who play in the European superclubs (level 10-20) are of a magnitude of skill far beyond that attainable by weekend players. Players at national standard (6-10) are superior to those at district level (4-6), who are superior to those of local level (1-3).

To compare with SHARK’s levels, in my campaign a regular soldier who has served for a few years but seen only occasional combat would be a Warrior lvl 2. An experienced combatant would be a War 3 and Veteran (who would be far and few between outside the officer core) would be a War 4. Officers at a field level who have had more intensive combat training and experience (such as a knight) would be Ftr 4’s. NPC’s of levels greater than this will be significant individuals.
 

My game world Midrea is not set up for Epic level adventuring

By and large 85% of all encounters the players have are with Humans (and the occasional Dwarf ) of levels 2-8.

The average person is a 3rd level commoner or 3rd level Freeman (slightly better but not a PC class)

While there are some monsters they are rare and all of them are from one of the 'Gate Worlds" One encounter ala SHARK would destroy my game world

There are no rules per se stopping the PC's from achieving epic level but there really aren't a lot of challenges for them to face to get the XP.

Big Monster usually means Big Problem and the Army is called out or the Wizards Circle intervene
Daily living will get you a few levels but age will get you eventually

I do enforce age as needed though there are ways....

As far as NPC's I have about a couple doxen Epic NPCs, 1 50th, several in their 20's (All Members of The Wizards Circle) a Paladin, Some Element Mages (About 8 of em), and 2 Rogues--

All other Epic NPC's (Above 20 class levels not counting ECL adjustment) are Elf Lords, Demon Lords, or Archons (celestials) and that sort of thing and to meet them you need to go through the Violet Gate in the middle of the Elf Wood, The Black Gate guarded by a Paladin Army or just find the White Gate.

If the players ever wanted to they could encounter and challenge those beings or even go epic themselves and ascend to a demigod or fall to a demonlord

Or just become Epic level if they can find challenge's enough

No one has wanted too yet but we will see...

BTW SHARK correct me if am wrong but Did you convert a few of your Epic guys directly over from Rolemaster? I notcied with some amusement the 50th level guys -- I figured that might be a 1 to 1 port myself
Personally I figured that it was about 2-1 port myself 2 Rolemaster equals 1 D&D level
 

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