Cerebramancer.....a word about duel caster class's

[MoogleEmpMog]

Overall, I find the Mystic Theurge rather weak. The wizardly Cerebromancer is much stronger, since all his spells and powers run off Intelligence, but hardly unbalanced.

I really doubt a Psi5/Wiz5/Cer10 will be a match for a Wiz20, although a Psi3/Wiz7/Cer10 will be, and a Psi3/Wiz3/Cer4 who then adopts the Mind Mage class from Dragon 313 for his last 10 levels will be a real beast - the spells of a Psi 15/Wiz 15 with an effective caster/manifester level of 23 and 2 x his Int modifier to save DCs.

That's generally the rule: to match or exceed the efficacy of a single caster in dramatic situations, a dual caster has to have more than one dual-progression PrC.

 

[HellHound]

That's generally the rule: to match or exceed the efficacy of a single caster in dramatic situations, a dual caster has to have more than one dual-progression PrC.

Very true. Which is why I added the "Theurgy" class ability to the Mystic Theurge and all the other dual-caster classes I put into "Secrets of Theurgy" (quick plug here for my 15-page treatise on Mystic Theurges). Effectively, it does not allow a character to ever have more than one dual-casting class. The primary balancer for these classes is the ten-level limiter, getting rid of that (ie: adding another dual-casting class) can be a real game-breaker.

 

[Thanee]

I suppose that the Cerebremancer is a bit stronger than the Mystic Theurge for a few reasons (spontaneous manifestation with no level hit (as compared to a spontaneous casting MT) and two strong "casting" branches (cleric spells are not as powerful as wizard spells or psion powers, they do have quite a few other advantages they have to give up to enter MT); also you combine the psion's power with the wizard's endurance, which gives more than the combination of two spellcasting classes).

Anyways...

In general, losing the highest spell levels is a huge loss of power for a pure spellcaster.

I've only seen the Mystic Theurge in actual play (and that experience corresponds with how I judged the class before) and well, up to 8th level this class sucks horribly, one of the worst "reasonable concepts" powerwise. After that they get better and the added versatility is, of course, nice. Once you reach double digit levels, the class starts to shine and at some point (close to 20th level) even outperforms single casters (if you do not continue to pick up both classes alternating, but concentrate on one, after the 10 levels of MT, that is).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Seeten]

I have a level 8(3 cleric, 3 necromancer, 2 true necromancer) dual caster, and I can assure you it is in no way balanced. Heh. I cast cleric spells as a 4th level caster and wizard spells as 8th, but I have the spells of a 4th level wizard also. This leads to me having first and second level spells only, and the CR's we face far outstrip my meager resources. I end up basically raising dead and self-buffing to be a necromancer who fights hth with a sword and spontaneous inflicts.

In another 5 levels, maybe, I wont completely suck, but to this point I do.

I would have preferred Necromancer/Pale Master, but the DM refused it, his vision was the True Necromancer. So, I dont mind sacrificing slightly, but the dual caster is just atrocious, for power level. IMO.

 

[Sir ThornCrest]

my dual class with wizard psion was weak but now Im at the top of the A list!!

I once was lost but now Im found..so to speak! Yes ii is true you suffer untill about the level where I am now 10th total casting at 7th and manifesting at 7th...
I am a kineticist, I have 15 powers +2 that I bought with the expanded knowledge feat twice. I bought astral construct from metacreativity discipline and read thoughts from the telepath discipline.

My astral contruct is a terror!! 25 str w/ 2 attacks at +10 to hit or / 29 str at +1 to hit but only 1 attack, I summon a few of these as body guards or to entertain other spell casters or to occupy an enemy fighter etc. they work beautifully!!! I love using them against clerics-they always waste an action or two trying to turn them.

I have mind thrust = 1d10 up too 7d10 damage. I use it vs fighters and rogues (anyone I suspect w/ a bad will save) sometimes I will use it against a spell caster and get lucky...it almost surely kills wizards in one shot, but is 50/50 at best vs their will save usually 60/40!

Ectoplasmic form: in case I need to turn to gas for defense, and w/ a ck roll I can continue to attack with my psionics and remain in gaseous...this is usually 50/50 for me to make my ck per round but still is absolutely devestating to the enemy.

I have many big boom energy based powers...

So I do see dualing with other classes to be a pain in the but but the wizard psion based cerebramance I am very happy with.

Sir Thorn Crest

I have a level 8(3 cleric, 3 necromancer, 2 true necromancer) dual caster, and I can assure you it is in no way balanced. Heh. I cast cleric spells as a 4th level caster and wizard spells as 8th, but I have the spells of a 4th level wizard also. This leads to me having first and second level spells only, and the CR's we face far outstrip my meager resources. I end up basically raising dead and self-buffing to be a necromancer who fights hth with a sword and spontaneous inflicts.

In another 5 levels, maybe, I wont completely suck, but to this point I do.

I would have preferred Necromancer/Pale Master, but the DM refused it, his vision was the True Necromancer. So, I dont mind sacrificing slightly, but the dual caster is just atrocious, for power level. IMO.

 

[Breezly]

What about this...

I am currently playing a 3rd level Psion (Shaper). I just leveled to 4th and switched to Wizard(Conjurer) Once I get through 3 levels of Wizard I am going to switch to Cerebremancer. Now, at 6th level I am considering taking the Practiced Spellcaster. This will allo me to add up to 4 levels to my arcance spell caster level. In this case, I would add 3 because it is limited to HD. This means that at 7th level (3 Shaper/3 Conjurer/1 Cerebremancer) I would be casting spells as if I was a 7th level wizard. Now, I don't get 7th level spells, but my damage, SR, Caster Level would all benefit. I am taknig some nice Ray spells, so my damage would be boosted.

What do you think about this?

On a side note, if I take Obtain Familiar as a Cerebremancer, do you think that Cerebremancer arcance levels count towards a familiar's abilities? I know that for a wizard/psion familiar it does not count. But, if I take a feat specifically for getting familiar, would the Cerebremancer levels count for my familiar abilities? Considering the lack of feats available to this prestige class, I thought it might. What do you think?

 

[Alzrius]

At level 20, you'll be 15/15 (Wiz5/Psi5/Ce10). After that, the PrC only offers one advancement per level, like Mystic Theurge. So, that's 16/16 at 22, 17/17 at 24. At this point, a full-fledged caster would have Multispell or spell slots of 10th and higher level.

Which is why, once you've gotten that tenth level of MyTh, you're better served to just go back to gaining levels in the base classes - you'll advance your spellcasting ability at the same rate as an epic MyTh, and you'll get the classes' relevant special abilities (such as that familiar and psicrystal finally gaining some power).

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Which is why, once you've gotten that tenth level of MyTh, you're better served to just go back to gaining levels in the base classes - you'll advance your spellcasting ability at the same rate as an epic MyTh, and you'll get the classes' relevant special abilities (such as that familiar and psicrystal finally gaining some power).

On the other hand, Mystic Theurge is now in epic regions and grants you epic bonus feats...

 

[Brain]

I am currently playing a 3rd level Psion (Shaper). I just leveled to 4th and switched to Wizard(Conjurer) Once I get through 3 levels of Wizard I am going to switch to Cerebremancer. Now, at 6th level I am considering taking the Practiced Spellcaster. This will allo me to add up to 4 levels to my arcance spell caster level. In this case, I would add 3 because it is limited to HD. This means that at 7th level (3 Shaper/3 Conjurer/1 Cerebremancer) I would be casting spells as if I was a 7th level wizard. Now, I don't get 7th level spells, but my damage, SR, Caster Level would all benefit. I am taknig some nice Ray spells, so my damage would be boosted.

What do you think about this?

On a side note, if I take Obtain Familiar as a Cerebremancer, do you think that Cerebremancer arcance levels count towards a familiar's abilities? I know that for a wizard/psion familiar it does not count. But, if I take a feat specifically for getting familiar, would the Cerebremancer levels count for my familiar abilities? Considering the lack of feats available to this prestige class, I thought it might. What do you think?

Yes, practiced spellcaster is good for that character.

Regarding your side note: No, cerebremancer levels don't count for familiar advancement.