Challenge! I want to convert your concept!

[SweeneyTodd]

Not to get off topic, but I had an idea: Maybe if we can't come up with a good way to express a character concept in 4e, but you can think of another game it might work for, mention that?

For example, that Clark Ashton Smith style swords&sorcery campaign mentioned above -- personally I'd run that with Sorcerer and the Sorcerer & Sword supplement. It's got GM advice on how to do exactly those kind of pulp-themed fantasy campaigns and how to hit the themes involved, and it definately gives rules for morally ambiguous (or downright evil) necromancers and demon-summoners.

 

[Lizard]

Unfortunately, that isn't a character that is at all effective. Unarmed attacks do not get a proficiency bonus (so they're 10-15% to hit behind an armed attack), only deal 1d4 damage, and cannot ever get an enhancement bonus or a magical effect.

Fistwraps +1.

As for proficiency...allow someone to trade Martial Weapon proficiency for Unarmed Proficiency. Due to the low damage, I think a +3 or even a +4 is justified.

 

[Korgoth]

You aren't (won't be?) playing DnD then. If you could play that game using DnD, then congratulations. But, that wasn't what the game was designed for, and if it works for that, it's a coincidence.

And, if all the new game did was allow for "Tom Clancy's Lord of the rings" whatever the hell that means, then as long as it did that right, then it'd still be a great game.

That sounds like revisionist history. It's purely a coincidence that previous editions of D&D allowed your imagination to run wild and run practically any type of fantasy you could concieve? A coincidence? Really?

And I quote:
"These rules are strictly fantasy. Those wargamers who lack imagination, those who don't care for Burrough's Martian adventures where John Carter is groping through black pits, who feel no thrill upon reading Howard's Conan saga, who do not enjoy the de Camp & Pratt fantasies or Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser pitting their swords against evil sorceries wil not be likely to find DUNGEONS and DRAGONS to their taste. But those whose imaginations know no bounds will find that these rulesare the answer to their prayers. With this last bit of advice we invite you to read on and enjoy a "world" where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" - E. Gary Gygax, 1 November 1973.

D&D is about fantasy adventure modelling any number of authors and is intended for those whose imagination knows no bounds.

But now there seems to be this idea that D&D is absolutely and only allowed to be about "Ye Olde Delta Fourse". Which I find far too narrow and myopic... but if that's what WOTC wants to do with it, that's what they can do. However I chafe at the revisionist notion that this is all the game was ever about because that's simply not true.

 

[LostSoul]

Is that an official rule? Because if not then its unusable unless you the player is at the same time the DM.

Yeah: page 42.

 

[unobserved]

I want that this character works for a player, not for a DM.
Maybe its normal that you tell your DM which house rules he has to implement, but when I am a player I don't boss around the DM and tell him what he has to do.
That means that the concept can not require specific houserules because thats up to the DM and not the player who plays the character.

S.O.L.

 

[tophu]

If you happen to be a half-elf (best race for it), choose the Wizard's Prestidigitation as your Dillettente ability, and take Group Insight as a feat.

You can't do that. You can only take level 1 at will attack powers. You can't take a cantrip.

 

[Pbartender]

But now there seems to be this idea that D&D is absolutely and only allowed to be about "Ye Olde Delta Fourse". Which I find far too narrow and myopic... but if that's what WOTC wants to do with it, that's what they can do. However I chafe at the revisionist notion that this is all the game was ever about because that's simply not true.

Oh really?

And I quote:

[bq]This goes all the way back to Gen Con 1 with a fellow by the name of Jerry White from Portland, Oregon, as I recall. He brought a bunch of 40 millimeter Elastolin figurines done by Hauser. I started playing and got hooked. Jeff Perren happened to collect quite a few of those same scale miniatures and he had gone and set up rules for them. Henry Bodenstadt ran a gaming shop business out in New York, he had got his “Siege of Bodenstadt” game into Strategy & Tactics magazine at that time published by Chris Wagner. This was what really hyped the 40 mm figurines.

Playing games with those miniatures and a castle, hooked me completely on such gaming, so Jeff Perren came to Lake Geneva and I had a sand table in my basement. He brought in his 40 millimeter Elastolins and his set of rules where one figure equaled 20 men, and we both had a heck of a time, but he lost interest later. And he left the rules with me and I said, “I will expand these, they need to cover more historical settings.” I turned two pages of rules into about four. And then I figured it would be a lot more fun to play man-to-man and make those weapons count. So I wrote up a set of man-to-man rules, then rules for jousting, and finally a fantasy supplement with dragons, heroes, magic swords and spells; and eventually those were published as Chainmail.

So it was really Jeff Perren who was the inspiration (laughs). Well, the real inspiration was the Elastolin figures.

Well when you were one-for-one in most areas, you had an Elastolin figure…so the player would control any figure on the table that was his. And each one would take two hits to kill or whatever. Dave Arneson up in the Twin Cities started a Chainmail campaign where all the players each had one figure and he brought that style of game down to Lake Geneva to show me. I said, “Wow, that’s really cool”. So out of his inspiration, I created the D&D rules.[/bq]

- E. Gary Gygax, 20 July 2004.

In other words, D&D was originally invented by taking Chainmail and turning it into "Ye Olde Delta Fourse".

But that's beside the point.

That sounds like revisionist history. It's purely a coincidence that previous editions of D&D allowed your imagination to run wild and run practically any type of fantasy you could concieve? A coincidence? Really?

...

D&D is about fantasy adventure modelling any number of authors and is intended for those whose imagination knows no bounds.

Now, I don't necessarily disagree with you here, but I think there's an entirely different cause to the problem.

In previous editions, there simply wasn't the multitude of options when it came to playing... especially in combat. You moved, you attacked or you cast a spell. If you wanted to do something fancy, like swinging on a chandelier, you moved and attacked and simply used your imagination to describe it so it sounded cool. (I know, I know, that's a simplification, but bear with me, here.)

In 3E, we suddenly had all these abilities and feats and skills and actions for practically everything you wanted to do -- especially so, once the splat books started coming out. I think a lot of players came to rely on defining their characters by what they could do, based on the basic flavor text included with the abilities and feats and skills and such, instead of doing what we did in earlier editions... Using our imaginations to explain flavor-wise how the abilities and feats and action are working.

4E, as far as I can see so far, had tried to come back to that a little. You can see it many of the non-combat rules, where the rulebook says something like, "Here are some loose guidelines, but it's up to the DM to figure out the details. Ask him."

My point is that there's no reason you can't let your imagination run wild in 4E. Just get rid of all the flavor text from the rulebooks, keep the mechanics the same and describe the effects the way you want.

You want a magicky fighter? Then go make a Fighter, dabble a little is Wizard, and describe all the special side effects of his exploits as the results of his magic, rather than physical prowess. So long as it doesn't affect the way the rules actually work, why not?

Why can't a Rogue's Stealth skill be due to some mysterious magic spell of ninja semi-invisibility, rather than any innate talent or skill?

 

[Pbartender]

You can't do that. You can only take level 1 at will attack powers. You can't take a cantrip.

"At 1st level, you choose an at-will power from a class different from yours." It says nothing about "level 1" or "attack" powers, only "at-will".

Cantrips are, technically, At-Will powers from a different class... Though you do have a point. I'll have to get some second opinions about it.

 

[thatdarnedbob]

That sounds like revisionist history. It's purely a coincidence that previous editions of D&D allowed your imagination to run wild and run practically any type of fantasy you could concieve? A coincidence? Really?

And I quote:
"These rules are strictly fantasy. Those wargamers who lack imagination, those who don't care for Burrough's Martian adventures where John Carter is groping through black pits, who feel no thrill upon reading Howard's Conan saga, who do not enjoy the de Camp & Pratt fantasies or Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser pitting their swords against evil sorceries wil not be likely to find DUNGEONS and DRAGONS to their taste. But those whose imaginations know no bounds will find that these rulesare the answer to their prayers. With this last bit of advice we invite you to read on and enjoy a "world" where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" - E. Gary Gygax, 1 November 1973.

D&D is about fantasy adventure modelling any number of authors and is intended for those whose imagination knows no bounds.

But now there seems to be this idea that D&D is absolutely and only allowed to be about "Ye Olde Delta Fourse". Which I find far too narrow and myopic... but if that's what WOTC wants to do with it, that's what they can do. However I chafe at the revisionist notion that this is all the game was ever about because that's simply not true.

I'm sure that once you picked up the 4E books your imagination didn't just wither up and die. Try thinking back to the old days when a fighter's only choices after creation were which equipment to use, how to act in combat, and roleplaying choices. If you managed to create an interesting concept with that, you should be able to do the same in this edition. I don't see how this edition of D&D prevents your Conan flavored game anymore than the 1st did; all the themes are in your head, and the books aren't keeping you from using them. Sure, the old books had Gary explicitly telling players that they could emulate any fantasy author's works, but they also had Gary imploring the DM to screw over the players so I think that's kind of a wash.

Anyway, so far this thread is doing a good job of getting people to stretch their imaginations beyond the 16 character builds and start thinking about 4E as a way to create the characters they want. It's a healthy movement. My first character is going to be a classic () Dwarven wizard/rogue multiclass, which is completely unsupported by the default builds. Just branch out a bit and try to have some fun.

 

[LostSoul]

This is kinda fun!

- I'm a spellcaster who uses the powers of nature -- animals, plants, and the elements -- to do my bidding. I can call down a storm of ice or lightning, blow my opponents' arrows away with a gust of wind, or cause the plants at their feet to grow and entangle them. I can speak to animals and get them to do my bidding.

• The elements are pretty obvious - Wizards and Warlocks do that already.
• Animals - you can use the Stunts to have them make attacks for you. That maintains the action economy.
• Plants - you can describe your spells as creating plants or using ones that currently exist to do stuff. (I'd give +2 if you were outdoors, because I'm a nice guy.) Look at Sleep - say that the plants entangle the creatures, causing a Slow effect (even if they move, the plants still wrap around them); and if they fail that first save, they are wrapped up so tight as to be Unconcious.
• Calling a gust of wind - any power that increases AC. Nice DMs (and those who take the "Yes" advice seriously) will let you Stunt using Nature to give someone else a +2 bonus to AC. I'd make that a Ready action, though.
• Speaking with animals - that's a Nature check. Yes, you can do it all the time. No, you can't always get the information you want. That's what we roll for.

- I'm a master of dread arcane magics, using the dead to do my bidding. I raid graveyards to animate the corpses of the dead, who serve as my swords and shields, while with my spells I rip the life force from the living and feed on it, speeding my transition to undeath.

• You can raise the dead using a Skill challenge.
• You can use the stunts to get them to do your bidding.
• Pick necromantic damaging spells, or just describe your spells working that way.
• You can become undead by altering the fluff of an Epic Destiny.

- I'm a wandering minstrel, who tells stories and performed for the masses. My gilded tongue and skill with the lute enables me to encourage friends and captivate foes. In a pinch, I can survive through my skill with a blade, by the deft lift of a few coins, or by beguiling another with a bit of distracting illusion magic.

• You are a wandering minstrel. You are awesome. No need to roll for that! If you do want something important, or there's a conflict, then you need to roll to resolve that.
• Play a Warlord.
• Train Theivery by taking Pact Initiate.

- I'm a subtle master of the arcane arts. I use mind-magic to warp the thoughts of others, causing them to do my bidding even when they don't realize it. I eschew the flash-bang wizardry of most arcanists and prefer to work from the shadows.

• Use Arcana to do stunts that make other monsters attack each other! Yeah! Use the "Normal Damage Expressions" for these attacks.

- I'm an honored warrior who has forsaken material aids such as armor and blades to focus on honing my very body as a weapon. I can halt or turn the strongest blow while my fists and feet can strike hard and true no matter that my foe defends with sword and shield. My mental focus is such that I can even penetrate magical defenses and shrug off magical attacks.

• Describe your armour as martial kick-assitude. You have an armour check penalty; I don't know how to get around that.
• Describe your weapon as fists and feet.
• Have the DM "upgrade" your hands & feet as part of the treasure.
• Shrug off magical attacks using your Defenses, like normal.

- I am a deadly assassin. I lurk in the shadows, unheard and unseen, oberving and tracking my target for days and weeks until I get the opportunity to strike. I never fail in my missions; whether my target is a king, a warrior, or a wizard I am able to penetrate their defenses, kill quickly, and escape without leaving a trail. My weapons are many: I am as adept with the heavy blade as I am with a crossbow, for I kill in close and from afar. Poison and death magics are my friend, for I know ways to kill that do not leave marks or traces.

• Train Stealth and Perception.
• Take Rogue. Boost Sneak Attack damage.
• Buy poison.
• Take Pact Initiate and deal psychic damage.

- I am a servant of the gods. I spread my message of enlightenment wherever I go. I am not a warrior of steel; I am a warrior of words and the mind. Though I wear but simple robes and carry but a common yew staff, I can halt armies through the power of my faith. My knowledge is deep; I can answer any question given access to the right tomes, and failing that I can gain the answers from the gods themselves.

• Train History? I don't know what you mean with the other stuff. Skill challenges?

- I am a battlemancer. I draw my mystic power from battle itself, using magic with blade, bow, and shield to make me an unstoppable foe. As I raise my mystic defenses and armor of force, I can halt one set of foes with a gesture while destroying another with blasts of fire and lightning. I can charge into whirling melee, trusting my armor and magic to defend me while I channel arcane forces through my blade and lay my foes to waste. Should my arcane power be defeated or denied, I can still carry the day with my mastery of steel.

• Take Fighter. Multiclass with Wizard.