Challenge! I want to convert your concept!

[LostSoul]

Let me make it easier for you: He's an evil wizard with superhuman intelligence who plots world domination via dark supernatural magic and minions. He is the archatypical villain who sits in his dark tower waiting for the heroes to drop by so they can be vanquished and he can laugh manically. If 4E can't fullfill this archetype, I worry about the game.

What do you do (or want to do) when you play this guy, other than sit in your dark tower and laugh manically?

 

[theNater]

Oooh, may I get in on this?

I'm a knight. From birth, I had everything I ever needed handed to me, so I immersed myself in studies and education, attending the finest schools of Dementlieu. Today, I stride out against the twisted creatures of the night with a horse and full armour, but my true strength comes from my intimate knowledge of monsters and their kind.


(I have a bit of an ulterior motive in posting this - this poor character didn't work in Third.)

The wacky thing about this is that you can do it with many character classes. The monster knowledge checks can, if high enough, give you all the information you need to target the monster's weaknesses. The skills that provide monster knowledge are Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature and Religion. Wizards have all of these as class skills, while clerics and rangers have two each. Given your desire to have full armor, I'd go with a cleric(in chainmail). You'll need your first two feats for Skill Training in Nature and Dungeoneering, and then you'll be all set.

You'll want high wisdom and intelligence for the ability bonuses to the skills, so if cleric isn't to your taste, you can go with paladin. He's got full-on plate, but will need 3 Skill Training feats, so he won't be fully up to speed until level 4. If you want the martial power source, none of them will require more than 5 feats to get into heavy armor with all four skills(rogue is worst, fighter needs 4, warlord and ranger need 3 each, and warlord has a good intelligence build avaliable). Eladrin and humans can speed the aquisition of necessary abilities up, each in their own way.

 

[theNater]

Good try! My assessment:



Grade: B. The animals don't work, as they aren't persistent.



Grade: C+. Again, lack of persistent minions, plus let's face it: there isn't much in the way of necromantic magic in 4E.

Yeah, persistent minions are pretty much gone. Necrotic abilities didn't get the same love radiant abilities did, but a dedicated warlock/wizard can arrange for all four of his enounters and all four of his dailies to be necrotic. The encounter and daily power of the Life-Stealer paragon path are both necrotic; I'll list the other powers with the wizard power last.

Encounters: Vampiric Embrace(1), Soul Flaying(13), Black Fire(27)
Daily: Hunger of Hadar(5), Wrath of Acamar(19), Necrotic Web(25)

Grade: B+. The illusions are impractical given casting times, but the rest is spot on.

I'm glad you liked it!

Grade: D. The word "shadows" must have misled ... this is intended to be pure enchanter territory. I find the mindwarping spells a bit minimal.

Not very much noncombat mindwarping, I'll admit. But I did notice that Curse of the Dark Delirium doesn't have to be in combat. It doesn't last long, but it can last long enough to secure a royal signature. A warlock who got himself into a king's court by curing the kings nightmares(caused by the warlock himself) could prove an entertaining and powerful villain.

Thanks again for all the ideas, and I'm pleased to see I got mostly passing grades.

 

[Boarstorm]

Here's something for you to chew on -- a high level PC from a few games back.

This character was a light armor wearing, giant sword wielding warrior who dabbled in magic and, due to his prestige class, had managed to gain many draconic traits including breath weapons and frightful presence.

So far, easy enough, but he also used numerous draconic grafts to enhance his combat abilities -- gaining a tail to slam his enemies, claws on one arm, and scales grafted onto his skin to cover various vulnerable areas.

The end result was a human gish who was more beast than man. His oddness was always forefront, even before utility or effectiveness.

He would buff himself and then wade into battle with his sword, swatting with his tail as a secondary attack, trusting in his light armor, scales and various resistances (all from the PrC) to protect himself.

In 3.5 terms, this character was a fighter 3/sorcerer 3/talon of tiamat 9 (don't ask me where the PrC came from, I don't recall) who made extensive use of the grafting rules that appeared in the later 3.5 edition splatbooks.

Edit: Did some research. The PrC was from the Draconomicon and the Draconic Grafts from Races of the Dragon.

Mainly curious how you'd work the grafts -- just refluffed magic items, or something else?

 

[pawsplay]

That said - 1. Reflavor another celestial as an aasimar. I think there is actually one over in the house rules forum that hit it off fairly well. Wizards still own knowledge skills and hurl fireballs and teleport about, so that's no problem. Thrown magical weapons always return in 4e, so that's taken care of, too.

Can he teleport at teen levels? Just wondering. I guess the polymorphing into a hawk thing is kaput, right?

2. A duskblade could be made with ranger (for your multiple attacks) with some warlock multiclassing for teleports and other duskblade type magic, or you could use cleric or paladin to get that delivering magical pain through your blade feel. Although, you could do that too with the ranger/warlock dual wielding a sword and a pact blade dagger.

It's just really not the same without energy surge. And this was a longsword and shield guy.

 

[Lore Raithbone]

Here's something for you to chew on -- a high level PC from a few games back.

This character was a light armor wearing, giant sword wielding warrior who dabbled in magic and, due to his prestige class, had managed to gain many draconic traits including breath weapons and frightful presence.

So far, easy enough, but he also used numerous draconic grafts to enhance his combat abilities -- gaining a tail to slam his enemies, claws on one arm, and scales grafted onto his skin to cover various vulnerable areas.

The end result was a human gish who was more beast than man. His oddness was always forefront, even before utility or effectiveness.

He would buff himself and then wade into battle with his sword, swatting with his tail as a secondary attack, trusting in his light armor, scales and various resistances (all from the PrC) to protect himself.

In 3.5 terms, this character was a fighter 3/sorcerer 3/talon of tiamat 9 (don't ask me where the PrC came from, I don't recall) who made extensive use of the grafting rules that appeared in the later 3.5 edition splatbooks.

Mainly curious how you'd work the grafts -- just refluffed magic items, or something else?

Well, there are two ways you can do this. The first is to take a Dragonborn Fighter with a good int or dex and dabble a little in an arcane class (Wizard or Warlock) to gain some magic attack powers. I'd work the grafts as refluffed magic items, as its the simplest method and preserves internal balance.

If you want a human fighter, simply have him wear magical Scale armor and say its fused with his body; the way scale works in 4e, if he takes Scale Specialization it has no armor check penalty and no speed reduction; sounds like what you really want out of light armor to me (not to mention a higher AC). He would go for high strength and dex 17 ish to qualify for scale specialization but that also opens up all of the heavy blade paragon and epic feats (some of which are pretty damn nice).

Honestly, its extremely easy to mimic the dabbling in magic with the multiclassing feat(s), because that is honestly what they represent. An encounter and a utility magic power is probably all you really need, and if its not an attack power even better, you can mostly ignore intelligence/charisma.

 

[theNater]

How about a Gelatinous Cube monk --he's an NPC from my current game, a former gladiator and political candidate named Glutinous Maximus. Granted, he broke 3.5 a wee bit, but sadly, not by much...

... I suppose you could write him up a 4e monster. That would work.

Well, for most monk-like abilities I've been recommending ranger and fighter powers used with unarmed attacks. So if we take some of those and add the rogue's Garrote Grip(15) reflavored as the gelatinous absorb, are we all set? Or are there more things he needs to be able to do?

 

[moritheil]

Over on Dragonsfoot and other forums it would seem to be a MAJOR merit of AD&D. One thing that's clear with the 4e books: They've tried to inject "rule zero" in a lot more than 3e ever did, which (among myself and a lot of 3e players who used to play 1E and 2E) was a major point of complaint a few years ago.

Hmm, my point is that it defaults to the ability level and whims of the DM rather than guaranteeing consistent rulings across different campaigns. I would say that successful "rule zero" use speaks to the level of the DM, not the level of the system.

When I GMed In Nomine, my first few sessions were lackluster. After I had experience with the system and was attuned to the style and reasoning behind it, I was able to generate reasoning, backstory, check digits, and rulings on the fly with pinpoint precision. Is that "a strength" of In Nomine? No, I'd say it's simply consistency, which is a basic requirement of any system. So I wouldn't say the ability to rule zero is a "strength" of 4E.

 

[moritheil]

I recognize that armies of persistent minions and unrestrained shapeshifting are not present. As such, I am asking that character concepts suggested here not rely on them, because they will not model well.

While I do not want to engage in an extended discussion of the merits and implications of these facts, the statements are themselves admissions that you cannot do with 4E that which you can do with 3.x.

Is the reverse true?

 

[theNater]

Here's a curveball: I'd like to see some characters from Super Smash Bros. Brawl statted up. I want to run a Subspace Emissary campaign. I'm not trying to prove anything; this is honestly something I want to try out. Feel free to reflavor copiously, of course, and even alter/create new powers, but try to keep to the four roles.
(If I recall correctly, the general consensus was that Mario was an unarmed swordsage in 3.5.)

I don't know the abilities of the Brawl characters very well. I usually play as Jigglypuff, so I'll give him a shot.

Up-special: Sleep(wizard 1), Knockout(rogue 9), or anything else that causes unconsciousness.
Side special: Deft Strike(rogue 1), Evasive Strike(ranger 1), Sudden Surge(fighter 7)or any other attack that lets you move as part of the attack.
Down special: Raise the Stakes(rogue 16) is the only high-risk, high-reward power I can spot at the moment. There may be others.
No direction special: Expeditious Retreat(wizard 2), followed by any attack that does severe damage, like Brute Strike(fighter 1) or Trick Strike(rogue 1).

Given that, I'd probably go rogue/wizard. Those little pink hands probably count as light blades.

I'd probably remodel a lot of moves as basic ranged attacks(Mario's fireball, Fox's laser, Link's arrow, etc.), so they don't force any particular class. I also notice that most of the characters have Cloud Jump(rogue 22), you may want to give that to everyone for free.