Challenge: Make Knowledge Skills Useful

[Mistwell]

I believe player's with a high bonus to knowledge checks are left thinking "what exactly is it I know with this skill? What things can I do with it?"

I am trying to formulate a comprehensive list of DCs for what you can do with knowledge checks.

What I am looking for is sidebars, notes, "new uses for old skills", optional knowledge rules, and other details taken from all the various d20 products that give an example of what you can do with various knowledge checks.

For example, WOTC's Tome & Blood gives some examples of what you can do with Knowledge: Arcana. Bastion Press' Alchemy & Herbalists give DCs for Knowledge: Nature checks regarding herbs and alchemy. I'm betting a whole ton of other products offer advice and rules for using Knowledge skills.

What I am trying to do is make a list of DC guidelines for various knowledge skills similar to the DC list for various "Lore" abilities, such as Bardic Knowldge, Loremaster's Lore, AU's Akashic Delve into Collective Memory, and Diamond Throne's Ollamh Lorekeeper's prestige class Lore.

Specifically I will be doing this for an Arcana Unearthed game, but don't let that hold you back. I'm sure any infor on 3.0 or 3.5 Knowledge skills can be adapted to the list of Knowledge skills in AU...not to mention I want the list to be useful for most DMs and player's, not just the subset who play AU.

Any and all help would be appreciated. Besides, I bet it will be fun delving into all those old d20 books you have trying to hunt down knowledge skill listings in them to help out a fellow EnWorlder.

And, of course, I will post whatever I come up with here, for comment and criticism and common use.

Thanks in advance. Let the hunt begin!

 

[FrankTrollman]

Before this can really be done, there has to be a definitive discussion about which Knowledge Skills exist in your world.

The Hunter of the Dead requires "Knowledge: Undead" - but that seems to be the provision of "Knowledge: Religion" (that and a bunch of other things).


The 3.5 PHB lists "Knowledge: Royalty" and happily lists "Knowledge: History" (which includes knowledge of Royalty).

"Knowledge: Geography" is supposed to tell you about the people, but "Knowledge: Local" exists and seems to just be a knowledge of the people - the very same people that seem to be covered by "Knowledge: Geography".

And so on.

The categories don't make sense and conflict about what they are supposed to actually cover. Until it can be decisively determined which Knowledge specialties are in use, assigning them DCs is a fool's errand.

-Frank

 

[Mistwell]

Naw, it's not nearly as hard as you make it out to be.

Just list everything you find. Then, at the end, we can figure out what particular knowledge skills we can put each one under. But it's what you can do that is important, not which skill it happens to fall under.

 

[FrankTrollman]

No. I think it really is that hard.

For example:

If my character lives in a world where some creatures breathe fire, why wouldn't someone who knows about nature be able to identify a Griffon?

It's just a bird/lion thingy. It's a perfectly natural part of the world they live in.

I would put the DCs for identifying a living creature as:

Identify Living Creature by local name 10
Identify Living Creature's special abilities 15
Identify Living Creature's weaknesses 20
Especially obscure creature +5
Creature from another plane of existence +10
Identify creature from corpse 10
Identify creature from tracks 15
Body partially decomposed +5
Body skeletized +10
Tracks partially obscured +10
Tracks barely visible +20

And that would all be Knowledge Nature to me. All of it.

I totally reject the concept of "Knowledge Dungeoneering" that for some reason lets me identify a Sky Bleeder but not a Darkmantle.

-Frank

 

[Mistwell]

Well, and what was so hard about that. At the end we can discuss which skills it can be put into. Knowledge: Nature might well be the right place. But gathering the information itself is the hard part.


Keep them coming!

 

[Norfleet]

The other issue, once again, is the "noise effect" of skill checks vs. DCs. The concept of a "knowledge" skill seems to fall apart when random numbers are thrown into the matter of whether you do or do not know something.

I seem to recall that knowledge was a case where take-10 doesn't apply. I can't quite find where this rule is listed, or if it still exists as of 3.5, but it does create the effect where it's perfectly possible that somebody with more ranks in a knowledge skill will fail where somebody else with a much lower skill can succeed, and this is glaringly noticeable at the low levels. Buying many ranks of this "knowledge" skill can have little or no apparent effect when you actually NEED it.

There's also the question of what, exactly, a knowledge skill MEANS: Does the knowledge skill mean simply information that the character has stumbled across and picked up, or does it represent actively studying a subject to the point where it consumes a meaningful amount of study time that could have been used to practice something else, as the opportunity cost of buying a knowledge skill would seem to indicate? If so, then this sort of knowledge is no longer random, and running a random roll vs. a DC makes very little sense: Either a character knows something about the matter, or he does not. It's not something which is randomly determined the moment he tries to recall it, since the skill disallows retry: He can't ponder it and wrack his brain for the information with more time. The knowledge skill, in effect, has become a random roll of whether a character knows something or not. It is a silly way of handling this.

 

[jabberwocky]

If so, then this sort of knowledge is no longer random, and running a random roll vs. a DC makes very little sense: Either a character knows something about the matter, or he does not.

Well, what I have done is to say that you always take 10 when making a knowledge check. This gets rid of this problem, and models the 'you either know something or you dont' approach fairly well. Of course, this puts an upper limit on what you can actually know since you can't get a lucky roll. But with a DC of 30 for 'really tough' questions, you can answer almost everything when you get to a high skill level (which seems reasonable to me).

 

[Li Shenron]

I usually get no support at all to my view, but I really think that Knowledge skills should always be disallowed to Take 10, not only 20.

Otherwise, a rule such jubberwocky's that you ONLY Take 10 all the time makes sense as well.

What it does not make sense at all is to be allowed sometimes to Take 10 and sometimes to roll the dice. Coupled with the fact that you cannot retry a Knowledge check (because you either know a thing or not, and trying to think twice about it doesn't let you know something you previously didn't), this brings up a paradox that what you know depends on the situation.

 

[Steverooo]

Knowledge (Arcana):
Identify a Construct and its special powers/weaknesses: DC:10+HD
Identify a Dragon and its special powers/weaknesses: DC:10+HD
Identify a Magical Beast and its special powers/weaknesses: DC:10+HD
To have heard of an ancient mystery surrounding a known place: DC:15
To have heard of an ancient mystery surrounding an unknown place: DC:30
To be conversant with a magical tradition: DC:15

Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering):
Detect Unsafe Aquaducts/Bridges/Ceilings/Floors/Walls: DC:20 (Craft:Stonemason also works, and can be tried, Untrained)
To recognize a style of architecture: DC:10
To design/build a house: DC:10
To design/build a small bridge: DC:10
To design/build a house: DC:10
To design/build a small aquaduct: DC:10
To name any part of a fortified structure: DC:10
To design/build a large structure: DC:15
To design/build a large aquaduct: DC:15
To design/build a medium fortified structure: DC:15
To design/build a large fortified structure: DC:20

Knowledge (Dungeoneering):
Identify an Aberration and its special powers/weaknesses: DC:10+HD
Identify an Ooze and its special powers/weaknesses: DC:10+HD
To determine how much force a stalag(m/t)ite will withstand: DC:15
Detect Unsafe cavern Ceilings/Floors/Walls: DC:20

Knowledge (Geography):
To dress appropriately for the area & season: DC:5
To know the name of a major city, mountain chain, nation, people, river, etc.: DC:10
To know the name of a minor city, mountain, nation, people, river, etc.: DC:15
To know the name of a village, range of hills, tribe, stream, etc.: DC:20

Knowledge (History):
To have heard of a famous living person: DC:5
To have heard of a famous dead person: DC:10
To have heard of less-known living royalty: 10
To have heard of less-known dead royalty: 15
To know important dates concerning living royalty: DC:10
To know important dates concerning dead royalty: DC:15
To know when wars fought during your lifetime occurred: DC:5
To know when wars fought up to 100 years before your birth occurred: DC:10
To know the dates of ancient wars: DC:15+
To know the strategy/tactics of famous ancient battles: DC:15
To know the strategy/tactics of less-famous ancient battles: DC:20
To know when a colony founded in your lifetime was founded: DC:10
To know when a colony founded up to 100 years before your birth was founded: DC:15
To know when a colony founded 100+ years before your birth was founded: DC:20
To know the founding/ending date of an abandoned/extinct colony: DC:30
To know when, within your lifetime, a people migrated into/out of an area: DC:10
To know when, within 100 years of your lifetime, a people migrated into/out of an area: DC:15
To know when, within 100+ years of your lifetime, a people migrated into/out of an area: DC:20
To know when a major extant city was founded: DC:10
To know when a major extinct city was founded: DC:10
To know when a minor extant city was founded: DC:15
To know when a minor extinct city was founded: DC:15
To know when an extant village, hamlet, thorp, etc. was founded: DC:20
To know when an extinct village, hamlet, thorp, etc. was founded: DC:25

Knowledge (Local):
Identify a Humanoid and its special powers/weaknesses: DC:10+HD
To know of a major local legend: DC:10
To know of a minor local legend: DC:15
To know of an obscure local legend: DC:20
To know of a major local personality: DC:10
To know of a minor local personality: DC:20
To know of an obscure local personality: DC:30

Knowledge (Nature):
Identify an Animal and its special powers/weaknesses: DC:10+HD
Identify a Fey and its special powers/weaknesses: DC:10+HD
Identify a Giant and its special powers/weaknesses: DC:10+HD
Identify a Monstrous Humanoid and its special powers/weaknesses: DC:10+HD
Identify a Plant and its special powers/weaknesses: DC:10+HD
Identify a Vermin and its special powers/weaknesses: DC:10+HD
To dress appropriately for the climate & season: DC:5

Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty):
To have heard of famous living royalty: DC:5
To have heard of famous living nobility: DC:10
To have heard of famous dead royalty: DC:10
To have heard of famous dead nobility: DC:15
To have heard of less-known living royalty: 10
To have heard of less-known living nobility: 15
To have heard of less-known dead royalty: 15
To have heard of less-known dead nobility: 15
To know important dates concerning living royalty: DC:10
To know important dates concerning living nobility: DC:15
To know important dates concerning dead royalty: DC:15
To know important dates concerning dead nobility: DC:20
To know the lineage of a royal: DC:15+
To know the lineage of a noble: DC:20+
To know the coat of arms of royalty: DC:10+
To know the coat of arms of nobility: DC:15+

Knowledge (The Planes):
Identify an Elemental and its special powers/weaknesses: DC:10+HD
Identify an Outsider and its special powers/weaknesses: DC:10+HD
To know the basic conditions on another plane: DC:15 (+1/layer)
To know how a spell will function on another plane: DC:15 + Spell Level (+1/layer)

Knowledge (Religion):
Identify an Undead and its special powers/weaknesses: DC:10+HD
To recognize a votive figure/holy symbol: DC:10
To know what weapon a religion's priest(esse)s usually wield: DC:10
To know the mythic history, an ecclesiastic tradition, or a particular belief of a certain religion: DC:15+

That'll do, for a start...

 

[Steverooo]

The categories don't make sense and conflict about what they are supposed to actually cover. Until it can be decisively determined which Knowledge specialties are in use, assigning them DCs is a fool's errand.

I disagree withya. It's perfectly fine having the skills overlap, a bit.