Challenge: Make Knowledge Skills Useful

[FireLance]

The way I see it, the Knowledge skill is just an abstract way to determine whether a character knows something or not.

If an NPC tells a PC five minutes ago that skeletons are resistant to piercing and slashing weapons, should he be asked to roll a Knowledge (Religion) check to "remember" that information? I don't think so. Similarly, a character may have heard many rumours and legends about magical creatures while growing up (aka player knowledge), but it doesn't mean that they're true. ("Sorry Joe, the silver dagger only glances off the werewolf's hide. Looks like lycanthropes aren't actually vulnerable to silver.")

For that matter a character with a higher check modifier might generally know more than one with a lower modifier, but that doesn't mean that he knows everything that the second character knows and more. It is possible that the first character happened to forget something in the stress of the moment, or never encountered the fact in the first place.

 

[Norfleet]

What you say it is right, but at the same time it is likely that weak monsters are much more common, therefore easy to learn about

I did, in fact, mention this effect: This is why it's the MIDLEVEL monsters which people have difficulty remembering. The monsters at the extreme ends of the spectrum are memorable precisely because they ARE at the extreme ends of the monster spectrum.

Using a knowledge skill to determine the weaknesses or special strengths of a monster, when you encounter the monster, is a threatening situation. Therefore, you cannot take 10...hopefully the sudden sight of the monster will bring up long forgotten information in your brain, but maybe the sight of it will cause brain freeze and you can't remember anything. It's a roll.

On the other hand, if you look at a drawing of that monster while calming sitting down and thinking about it, I think it is perfectly reasonable that you be able to take 10 to recall information. You don't have the event itself smacking you in your face causing a sudden amazing recollection (which would be rolling a natural 20), but you recall the basics about that creature.

That runs smack into the face of the fact that Knowledge is not a retry-able skill. If the character COULD have passed the check had he taken 10, and therefore, KNOWS the information, and yet failed at the moment, indicating that under the pressure, he couldn't quite recall anything useful, does this mean that the experience has now caused him to forget everything he knew about the monster, since the check cannot be retried?

There's also the fact that these DCs, are, quite plainly, WAY TOO HIGH. Consider the actual cost of the knowledge skill: Actually buying points of this knowledge skill would have to represent a deliberate, focussed, and even obsessive study of the subject. For a character to have spent 4 points on a knowledge skill, for instance, represents such extensive study on the matter, that one of his other, perhaps more basic, skills, has been completely and utterly neglected. What, exactly, does it mean for a character to have traded his Spot skill, for a Knowledge skill? That suggests a level of study so obsessive that he ruined his eyesight reading about it. That is a LOT of studying, considering that there are plenty of subjects that I know a lot about, yet I'm not nearly blind. Evaluated in terms of opportunity cost, some skills really don't make very much sense: How, exactly, does improving one's knowledge on a subject reduce one's ability to concentrate? Wouldn't it tend to work synergistically, since if one cannot concentrate, and therefore has a very short attention span, one could never possibly have mustered forth the ability to study something so obsessively? This would seem to suggest that many ranks in one or more knowledge skills would imply a synergy bonus to concentration.

 

[Steverooo]

OK, that's just dumb.

PHB:78. Go argue with WotC.

 

[Crothian]

I use the skills actively, but I don't set specific DC that can be listed easily. I As people have said it matters more on the availibility of the knowledge, so I base it off of the Bardic Knowledge DC table. It keeps things simple and easy to use.

 

[Steve Jung]

From Magic of Faerûn

Knowledge (arcana)
Task DC
Recognize a spellcaster's personal rune 20
Recognize an attuned gem 25
Recognize an inscribed rune as magical 25
Recognize a material's affinity or resistance 25

Knowledge (religion)
Identify a patron of a religious magic item 20

 

[Mistwell]

Does anyone have the Quintessential books? If so, could you check those for knowledge skill uses?

 

[pyk]

The Knowledge skills are an either or, no retries allowed.

Which makes sense, as you either know it or you don't.

Random rolls for the knowledge make sense, as it becomes a just because Billy Bard knows it, does that mean Willy Wizard does, too? I think not. Once you pass the roll, then you don't re-roll for the info again (no retries allowed, remember?).

Setting DCs is reasonable. Some information is harder to get than others.

Overlapping the Knowledge skills also makes sense. I'm make circuit boards. So my Knowledge (Circuitry) also includes limited Knowledge (Gold Plating), Knowledge (CAD), Knowledge (Chemistry), etc. My father was an elevator repairman. This means that his Knowledge (Elevators) included limeted Knowledge (Plumbing), Knowledge (Electricity), etc.

This translates to someone with Knowledge (nature) having limited Knowledge (Construction) - knowing which wood is stronger, etc. Someone with Knowledge (History) is going to have some Knowledge (Nobilty), especially as it deals with history of nobility. But, this doesn't mean the Knowledge (History) buff will know how to act in front of particular Nobles. And the reverse, too. The Knowledge (nobilty) buff will have some knowledge of a nations history, but only as it deals with the specific nobles in that nation.

 

[Doctor Bomb]

IHow, exactly, does improving one's knowledge on a subject reduce one's ability to concentrate? Wouldn't it tend to work synergistically, since if one cannot concentrate, and therefore has a very short attention span, one could never possibly have mustered forth the ability to study something so obsessively? This would seem to suggest that many ranks in one or more knowledge skills would imply a synergy bonus to concentration.

SWEET idea. I am adding +2 synergy bonus to all knowledge skills by having 5 or more ranks in Concentration, and +2 synergy bonus to Concentration by having 5 or more ranks in any two knowledge skills.

/steal

 

[Scion]

wow.. that was quite a bump doctor bomb