Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

Been a bit busy on the Ascension art as well as prepping a week of website updates in honour of the Bestiary launch.

But thats not what I want to talk about, I have been involved in a discussion on challenge rating over at dicefreaks this past week...

http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=7506

Maybe talking through some of the stuff will help me get a better handle of it.

The initial question is what CR is the Infernal (from the ELH).

Going over the stats, version 6 (in its current incarnation) suggests ECL 55 which means CR 37. That of course means that it would be an EASY encounter for a 37th-level Party. If we increase the EL so that the Infernal uses (roughly) 25% of the party's resources, it would be CR 24 (two-thirds of 37).

Up to this point, everything looks rosy.

However, what the above is suggesting is that a 55th-level character (with PC wealth no less) will only use 25% of a 24th-level Party's resources.

But recent playtesting shows that one 36th-level PC is equal to x3.3 24th-level PC's and that one 48th-level PC is equal to x10 24th-level PC's.

So somewhere the math is going screwy. The playtesting is right, so I must be confusing myself on one of the myriad ECL to CR changes (or something like that). Can anyone spot the obvious mistake? I can't see the wood for the trees at the moment.

 

[Axolotl]

I thought that the whole point of CR was that it used up 1/4 of the resources of an equivelent level party?

Updates for the website sound good.

 

[Pssthpok]

Y'know... if we had Version 6 we could make our own estimations on the infernal CR. But, well...

 

[mercucio]

UK,

I am trying to determine the ECL/CR of a subclass of outsiders I designed a while back (the empyreals) using v5 of your system and I am curious how determine the wealth each creature carries. From what I understand the wealth a creature carries is determined by either ECL^3 * 100gp (Golden Rule) or ECL^3 * 25gp (Silver Rule). My question is which ECL is used? I imagine for the Golden Rule it is the full ECL, but when using the Silver Rule is it the Silver Rule ECL or the orginal ECL before applying the Silver Rule?

 

[mercucio]

Now, in regards to Infernal CR, how much of that is composed of the SLAs it possesses? Actually could you list the CR breakdown so we have a point of reference?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Axolotl mate!

I thought that the whole point of CR was that it used up 1/4 of the resources of an equivelent level party?

Challenge Rating can be a slippery customer at the best of times.

Updates for the website sound good.

Yes, I sort of neglected the website these past months but I actually have quite a few articles in an incomplete form, so I though I could spend an hour or two at nights sorting them out and getting them online.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Pssthpok dude!

Y'know... if we had Version 6 we could make our own estimations on the infernal CR. But, well...

If I had version 6 completed I wouldn't need to ask.

 

[Upper_Krust]

UK,

Hiya matey!

I am trying to determine the ECL/CR of a subclass of outsiders I designed a while back (the empyreals) using v5 of your system and I am curious how determine the wealth each creature carries.

Don't use v5 for that. I suggest using Ascension (if these are epic creatures).

From what I understand the wealth a creature carries is determined by either ECL^3 * 100gp (Golden Rule) or ECL^3 * 25gp (Silver Rule). My question is which ECL is used?

x100 GP = PCs or immortals

x25 GP = NPCs

I imagine for the Golden Rule it is the full ECL, but when using the Silver Rule is it the Silver Rule ECL or the orginal ECL before applying the Silver Rule?

I don't know, I must have been drunk when I wrote that, I don't remember assigning wealth by gold or silver rules.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Now, in regards to Infernal CR, how much of that is composed of the SLAs it possesses? Actually could you list the CR breakdown so we have a point of reference?

I can't remember where I put those notes (it was over 2 years ago I did those CRs). Version 6 simply converts the Version 5 figure.

Don't worry though - I'll figure it out. Momentary lapse of intellect, thats all it was, I blame the tonsilitis.

 

[Kerrick]

One of the challenges of v6 (no pun intended) is going to be getting rid of the confusion surrounding the system. Some of this stuff is so duplicitous that it even confuses me! The fact that WotC have NPC CR = ECL whereas monster CR = 2/3 ECL totally messes things up so badly that its a complete nightmare to try and explain it all. Throw in the fact that a moderate encounter is really an easy encounter and you find yourself in a mathematical quagmire.

Small wonder the designers decided to toss out the whole system - even they couldn't figure it out. Does monster CR=2/3 ECL mean that LA = 1/3 CR?

Now, with all this discussion about 4E monsters and the lack of the CR system and such, I've been looking over v5, trying to work a few things out. That system's a mess, for one thing - it's really hard to figure out (for me, at least) how to determine ELs. For example:

Five L5 PCs vs. a CR 5 creature. What's the EL? CR 5 says EL 10; but doesn't the number of PCs have an effect on that, too? Logic would dictate they'd wipe the floor with that lone CR 5 beastie, but I can't find the part where PEL factors in, beyond XP award. Do you just take the average ECL of the party and compare that to the EL? That's what I'm gathering from the examples you provided... But that means the CR 5 beastie is an impossible fight for them, because it's EL +5. If you apply the -4 modifier from Table 2-2 (for 5 PCs), that's still an EL 6 encounter - or EL +1, a "nemesis". I totally don't get it...

And your system says that an encounter of equal level uses up 100% of the party's resources (which I find patently silly)... but 4E is being balanced around the assumption that an encounter of equal level uses only 25%. So which is right? Granted, they ditched the CR system, but how are they going to ensure that it works?