Yet again with the tainting of 3.5 with WOTC's bastard creation that is not D&D. =^.^=
Challenging Challenge Ratings...again
- Thread starter Upper_Krust
- Start date
Kerrick said:
:roll: back at ya (that smiley seems not to work here)
Also
Upper_Krust
Legend
Howdy! 
Well Elites get a +2 bonus and Solos get a +5 bonus, hence the differences.
Presumably offset by magic items. The most powerful item being +6 at 30th-level. So against a Solo Monster you could potentially have as high as a 60% chance of success.
Kerrick said:
Well Elites get a +2 bonus and Solos get a +5 bonus, hence the differences.
Presumably offset by magic items. The most powerful item being +6 at 30th-level. So against a Solo Monster you could potentially have as high as a 60% chance of success.
Kerrick
First Post
I've been working on the Leadership feat, and the cohort rules. Based on the sample creatures posted with the Epic Leadership feat, I've come up with the following formulae for level equivalence:
Dragon: HD+8 (*guffaw*)
Giant: 1/2 HD x3
Magical beast: 1/2 HD x3 (I think - there are only two; hydra is 1/2 HD x3, and roc is 1/2 HD x3 +5)
Outsider: 1/2 HD x4 (kind of.. astral deva is 1/2 HD x3 +2, and glabrezu is 1/2 HD x3 +5)
So anyway, I set about using those as a guideline for setting level equivalents. I included aberration, monstrous humanoid, and undead, then came up with the following (rough) formulae:
Aberration: 1/2 CR x3
Dragon: 1/2 CR x3.75
Giant: 1/2 CR x2.5
Magical beast: 1/2 CR x2.75
Monstrous humanoid: CR
Outsider, angel: 1/2 CR x3.5 +2
Outsider, archon/guardinal: 1/2 CR x3.5 +1
Outsider, all others: 1/2 CR x3.5
Undead: 1/2 CR x3.25
Note that I'm using CR, not HD. Most of these are rough guesses based on relative power level of each type - obviously, dragons are at the top of the heap, with outsiders not far behind. I'm not too sure about aberrations and undead, comparison-wise, but I think undead hold the edge overall. Magical beasts beat out giants due to their magical abilities, and monstrous humanoids are down at the bottom because they have little besides class levels.
I tested a few of these, just to look at the numbers. Pretty much anything of CR 12 or above (except monstrous humanoids) is going to be = L20 on the chart, which places it firmly in Epic Leadership territory (I think you recommended dropping the epic version; I'll probably do that too).
With dragons, you won't be able to (reasonably) get anything above juvenile - a juvenile black dragon, frex, is 28th level, which requires a score of 46; a juvenile is 40th (score of 70). Same with outsiders - bone devil (CR 16) or maybe a glabrezu (CR 18) is about the best you could get; astral deva requires a score of 60; the other angels are well out of range (84 and 140).
My question is, does this sound fairly reasonable? I want to be able to let PCs get cool cohorts like dragons they can ride, but without tossing balance out the window.
Dragon: HD+8 (*guffaw*)
Giant: 1/2 HD x3
Magical beast: 1/2 HD x3 (I think - there are only two; hydra is 1/2 HD x3, and roc is 1/2 HD x3 +5)
Outsider: 1/2 HD x4 (kind of.. astral deva is 1/2 HD x3 +2, and glabrezu is 1/2 HD x3 +5)
So anyway, I set about using those as a guideline for setting level equivalents. I included aberration, monstrous humanoid, and undead, then came up with the following (rough) formulae:
Aberration: 1/2 CR x3
Dragon: 1/2 CR x3.75
Giant: 1/2 CR x2.5
Magical beast: 1/2 CR x2.75
Monstrous humanoid: CR
Outsider, angel: 1/2 CR x3.5 +2
Outsider, archon/guardinal: 1/2 CR x3.5 +1
Outsider, all others: 1/2 CR x3.5
Undead: 1/2 CR x3.25
Note that I'm using CR, not HD. Most of these are rough guesses based on relative power level of each type - obviously, dragons are at the top of the heap, with outsiders not far behind. I'm not too sure about aberrations and undead, comparison-wise, but I think undead hold the edge overall. Magical beasts beat out giants due to their magical abilities, and monstrous humanoids are down at the bottom because they have little besides class levels.
I tested a few of these, just to look at the numbers. Pretty much anything of CR 12 or above (except monstrous humanoids) is going to be = L20 on the chart, which places it firmly in Epic Leadership territory (I think you recommended dropping the epic version; I'll probably do that too).
With dragons, you won't be able to (reasonably) get anything above juvenile - a juvenile black dragon, frex, is 28th level, which requires a score of 46; a juvenile is 40th (score of 70). Same with outsiders - bone devil (CR 16) or maybe a glabrezu (CR 18) is about the best you could get; astral deva requires a score of 60; the other angels are well out of range (84 and 140).
My question is, does this sound fairly reasonable? I want to be able to let PCs get cool cohorts like dragons they can ride, but without tossing balance out the window.
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hi Kerrick mate!
I would have just used ECL for the monsters with the caveat of using v6's ECLs which are somewhat lower than v5's (+3 ECL then use 5/6ths for epic ECLs).
Kerrick said:
I would have just used ECL for the monsters with the caveat of using v6's ECLs which are somewhat lower than v5's (+3 ECL then use 5/6ths for epic ECLs).
Kerrick
First Post
I was using CR because CR is equivalent to a single character. ECL is much higher - could be too high for this.
Color me confused, but +3 is higher, not lower. And since I'm here, and I was wondering.. the "CRs" listed in v5 are actually ECLs, right? So I'd multiply them by 2/3 to get the actual CR (or use v6's and then x2/3)?
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hiya matey!
Add 3 to the existing ECL, divide by 6 and multiply by 5.
If the Balor is ECL 30 (in v5), add 3 to get 33, divide by 6 to get 5.5 and then multiply by 5 to get 27.5 (rounds down to 27).
*goes and looks at v5*
Okay, I don't understand any of this anymore, why is the Balor CR 31 if its 33 after the silver rule - what am I missing!? GAH!
It seems to me that you just take the Golde Rule figure and divide by 6 then multiply by 5 (5/6ths is the new Silver Rule as it were)
Correct, in v5 I (confusingly) use the term CR to mean ECL.
Kerrick said:
Add 3 to the existing ECL, divide by 6 and multiply by 5.
If the Balor is ECL 30 (in v5), add 3 to get 33, divide by 6 to get 5.5 and then multiply by 5 to get 27.5 (rounds down to 27).
*goes and looks at v5*
Okay, I don't understand any of this anymore, why is the Balor CR 31 if its 33 after the silver rule - what am I missing!? GAH!
It seems to me that you just take the Golde Rule figure and divide by 6 then multiply by 5 (5/6ths is the new Silver Rule as it were)
Correct, in v5 I (confusingly) use the term CR to mean ECL.
Krust, I don't even know where you GOT those numbers, let alone how the hell you made any sense of them in the first place.
Just breathe easy... just over a week from now you'll be sloughing off the detritus of 3.x and moving on to what looks like much more conducive ground.
Just breathe easy... just over a week from now you'll be sloughing off the detritus of 3.x and moving on to what looks like much more conducive ground.
Kerrick
First Post
Ahh, gotcha.
rofl. I think if you take the silver rule and just multiply by 5/6, it's accurate - the balor ends up being CR 27.
Anyway, I used the numbers in v5 as is (I didn't convert them to CRs), so my Leadership figures should be more or less accurate. Thanks!
Oh, BTW... I think I've asked this before, but how would LA factor into the ECL? And is LA = CR? Or should I just calculate all the bonuses gained from monster levels, multiply by 0.83, and use that instead?
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