Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Since someone brought this up... is there a way to convert ECLs directly to ELs without having to mess with CRs?

Basically its the same math, you just start two places further down the CR table (for ECL).

Might help to have a table column for CR, ECL and EL too.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again wizuriel!

Hey cheers but still confused with characters.

It is a very confusing system. My suggestion would be to use 4th Edition D&D and avoid all this math.

But while I'm here...

The example in the pdf has
20th-level Rogue*; 20th-level Wizard*; 15th-level Monk Half-
Dragon* (ECL 19) and an 18th-level Cleric* = EL 22
*Each created with Standard Point Buy ability scores (CR +1)

so ECL is 21+21+20+19 = 81, guves them a CR of 54 but thats only an EL of 19

Encounter Level 19 is a single monster with a CR 24-27.

Remember that when you get the encounter level you still have to convert that back into Challenge Rating.

edit:
yeah not having any luck with this . Using ochre jelly so far have

OCHRE jelly
6 (mindless ooze) = 2.7

Factors = 12.16
trait (mindless ooze) = 1.9
large = 0.4
climb = 0.2
slow = -0.4
fullattack (2d4) = 0.5
constrict = 0.35
imp grab = 0.2
special attack poison = .15

split (assuming the actual splitting was handled in the type cost)
immunity (eletricity, slash, piercing from split) = 11

ability = -1.3
skills = 0.16
no equipment = -1?

so would that be an ECL of 14.86? cr mentioned is 5 after golden rule

Remember that the golden rule divides all factors (except hit dice) by 2 after they have reached the same total as the hit dice factor.

So 2.7 for Hit Dice
+2.7 for factors (the first 2.7)
Everything after that divided by 2 which is 5.23 by my reckoning. No equipment is not a penalty for monsters.

So thats an ECL of 10.6, which is CR 7. Although thats 5.95 after the silver rule (CR 5)

I can only assume that I calculated some of its powers differently if I listed CR 5 after the golden rule and before the silver rule.

 

[wizuriel]

Hello again wizuriel!



It is a very confusing system. My suggestion would be to use 4th Edition D&D and avoid all this math.

But while I'm here...

thanks. Club only has 3.5 and seems to be the prefered system in my area.

Encounter Level 19 is a single monster with a CR 24-27.

Remember that when you get the encounter level you still have to convert that back into Challenge Rating.

the PDF lists the party though as an EL22. That is why I originally thought it would be ECL = CR = 21+21+20+19 = 81 which makes them EL 26 and when adjusted for being a party of 4 makes them 22. Though that than looks iffy cause the 5 lvl 5 than comes out to be EL16 instead of 14.

Remember that the golden rule divides all factors (except hit dice) by 2 after they have reached the same total as the hit dice factor.

So 2.7 for Hit Dice
+2.7 for factors (the first 2.7)
Everything after that divided by 2 which is 5.23 by my reckoning. No equipment is not a penalty for monsters.

So thats an ECL of 10.6, which is CR 7. Although thats 5.95 after the silver rule (CR 5)

I can only assume that I calculated some of its powers differently if I listed CR 5 after the golden rule and before the silver rule.

yeah think I'm making a mistake somewhere in the factors (probaly the splitting part). The Ochre is listed as CR 5.375, golden rule = 5 and silver rule = 4. Just not sure what doing wrong


went to try on the Belker since it is more basic then the ooze and still off on numbers Was wondering if anyone reading this could sbreak down a belker or ochre to see what doing wrong.

 

[Kerrick]

Basically its the same math, you just start two places further down the CR table (for ECL).

Cool, thanks.

Might help to have a table column for CR, ECL and EL too.

Yeah... does there happen to be one in v6?

It is a very confusing system. My suggestion would be to use 4th Edition D&D and avoid all this math.

(Best I could get to an eyeroll)

went to try on the Belker since it is more basic then the ooze and still off on numbers Was wondering if anyone reading this could sbreak down a belker or ochre to see what doing wrong.

I'll give it a shot. I'm currently figuring up ECLs for all the monsters for Project Phoenix (see sig for link); I've got the formulas set up in Excel, so all I have to do is plug in numbers.

I ran the ochre jelly through, and this is what I got:

Size/type: 2.3

HD: 2.7

Damage: 0.625 (I figure that additional energy damage is 0.05/die; this seems to be about right).

Movement: Slow: -0.2; Climb speed: 0.2 (total: +0)

Abilities:

Acid: 0.125 (again, it's just energy damage, so 0.05/die).

Constrict: 0.375

Imp. grab: 0.2

Split: 0.75 (I guessed at this one)

Immune to piercing/slashing: 3.33 (immunity to all weapons is 5.0, so I dropped it by 1/3)

Immune to electricity: 1

Golden Rule Total: 8.39

Silver Rule Total: 6

If you factor in stats, it ends up being CR 6. To do stats, add up the creature's ability scores and subtract 63. In the case of oozes, just use the Str/Con scores, since all the others are either 1 or --.

My guess is, either he didn't factor in weapon immunity at all, or he rated them a lot lower than I did.


The Belker (just because I happen to have it done already:

Size/type: 2.5

HD: 3.85

Speed: 1.0

Damage: 1.08

Abilities: 0.385 (I treated the smoke claws ability as imp. grab, so 0.2; 0.08 for bonus skill points; and 0.105 for smoke form)

Golden Rule: 8.26

Silver Rule: 6

After stats: 7

 

[Upper_Krust]

I ran the ochre jelly through, and this is what I got:

Size/type: 2.3

HD: 2.7

Damage: 0.625 (I figure that additional energy damage is 0.05/die; this seems to be about right).

Movement: Slow: -0.2; Climb speed: 0.2 (total: +0)

Abilities:

Acid: 0.125 (again, it's just energy damage, so 0.05/die).

Constrict: 0.375

Imp. grab: 0.2

Split: 0.75 (I guessed at this one)

Immune to piercing/slashing: 3.33 (immunity to all weapons is 5.0, so I dropped it by 1/3)

Immune to electricity: 1

Golden Rule Total: 8.39

Silver Rule Total: 6

If you factor in stats, it ends up being CR 6. To do stats, add up the creature's ability scores and subtract 63. In the case of oozes, just use the Str/Con scores, since all the others are either 1 or --.

My guess is, either he didn't factor in weapon immunity at all, or he rated them a lot lower than I did.

The factors determine ECL not CR, you have to convert to CR (I know a previous version did actually use the terms CR for the factor total so it can be confusing).

By my calculations (using Wizuriel's ability score mod and your mod for damage immunity) its about 7.6 after the Golden Rule and 6.4 after the silver rule. That means 6.4 ECL = CR 4.

The Belker (just because I happen to have it done already:

Size/type: 2.5

HD: 3.85

Speed: 1.0

Damage: 1.08

Abilities: 0.385 (I treated the smoke claws ability as imp. grab, so 0.2; 0.08 for bonus skill points; and 0.105 for smoke form)

Golden Rule: 8.26

Silver Rule: 6

After stats: 7

What is this 'after stats' business?

You total all factors except Hit Dice, subtract Hit Dice factor from everything else, then halve the remainder (the golden rule), then multiply by 0.85* (the silver rule). There is no 'after stats'.

*or 0.83333 etc. if you want to be pedantic.

 

[wizuriel]

The factors determine ECL not CR, you have to convert to CR (I know a previous version did actually use the terms CR for the factor total so it can be confusing).

Ah, one I'm looking at says CR. My first question should probaly have been to see if using the right one V5 from here

Had a bit more luck with Belker
HD = 3.85

factors = 5.115
large = .4
flight = 1
fast speed = .2
natural AC = 0.8
spellability = 0.21
full attack = 0.75
swallow (figured the damage was more for that) = 0.375
stats = 1.3
skills = 0.08

so ECL after golden = 8 giving it a CR of 5?

well getting closer to the values. cheers for help

 

[Kerrick]

The factors determine ECL not CR, you have to convert to CR (I know a previous version did actually use the terms CR for the factor total so it can be confusing).

By my calculations (using Wizuriel's ability score mod and your mod for damage immunity) its about 7.6 after the Golden Rule and 6.4 after the silver rule. That means 6.4 ECL = CR 4.

I did convert it to CR. Like I said, I've got it all set up in Excel - all I have to do is plug in the numbers. I did screwed up, though, because I added Acid twice - once for damage and once for an ability. It should be:

Size/type: 2.3

HD: 2.7

Damage: 0.35

Abilities: 5.75

Total: 11.1; Golden Rule: 8.25; Silver Rule: 6.

What is this 'after stats' business?

You total all factors except Hit Dice, subtract Hit Dice factor from everything else, then halve the remainder (the golden rule), then multiply by 0.85* (the silver rule). There is no 'after stats'.

Section 10: Ability Scores. Total all rated ability scores, subtract 63, and divide by 10 to get the CR modifier.

Ah, one I'm looking at says CR. My first question should probaly have been to see if using the right one V5 from here

Had a bit more luck with Belker
HD = 3.85

factors = 5.115
large = .4
flight = 1
fast speed = .2
natural AC = 0.8
spellability = 0.21
full attack = 0.75
swallow (figured the damage was more for that) = 0.375
stats = 1.3
skills = 0.08

so ECL after golden = 8 giving it a CR of 5?

well getting closer to the values. cheers for help

Speed only counts if it's double or more base speed for a monster of its size. The belker's fly speed is only 50, which is actually below average for its size.

Good call on the smoke claws - it's closer to swallow whole than improved grab. It doesn't change much, though; I still end up with 6/7.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick mate!

I did convert it to CR. Like I said, I've got it all set up in Excel - all I have to do is plug in the numbers. I did screwed up, though, because I added Acid twice - once for damage and once for an ability. It should be:

Size/type: 2.3

HD: 2.7

Damage: 0.35

Abilities: 5.75

Total: 11.1; Golden Rule: 8.25; Silver Rule: 6.

Just so that I'm understanding you properly, you know the factors determine ECL so that '6' after the silver rule is ECL, and the final CR is 4.

 

[Kerrick]

Just so that I'm understanding you properly, you know the factors determine ECL so that '6' after the silver rule is ECL, and the final CR is 4.

Does it? It's kind of unclear; Page 9 kind of intimates that anything after the Silver Rule is ECL, but Appendix 3 (also Silver Rule) never mentions ECL at all - in fact, it says that applying the Silver Rule makes the CR more accurate. I'm going by your assertion that CR = 2/3 ECL, so its ECL is 6 and its CR is 4.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Does it?

Yes.

It's kind of unclear; Page 9 kind of intimates that anything after the Silver Rule is ECL, but Appendix 3 (also Silver Rule) never mentions ECL at all - in fact, it says that applying the Silver Rule makes the CR more accurate. I'm going by your assertion that CR = 2/3 ECL, so its ECL is 6 and its CR is 4.

If there is any ambiguity its probably my fault. However, in my defense its a confusing subject at the best of times and previous versions of the CR/EL system did use the term CR to describe ECL (just to increase any confusion).