D&D 5E Challenging High-Level 5e Characters

[Oofta]

Healing word is nice, but at the level most PCs cast it, it only gives the target enough HP to survive 1 hit and assumes that caster can see the target. As a DM it's not my goal to kill off PCs, it's my goal to challenge the players and keep the PCs on their toes. Healing word does a lot of work to keep the person playing the cleric engaged and feeling like they're doing something other than being a healing bot.

Almost having a TPK is far more enjoyable for every group I've ever DMed than actually having a TPK.

 

[Micah Sweet]

How about a limited number of times per recipient? Perhaps, for example, Con mod?

That's not a bad idea. I'm not sure it's enough though. The issue as I see it is that you can do it as a bonus action, and you can do it at range. The spell is tailor-made to be used for the cleric yoyo maneuver. If someone has, say, a +2 Con mod, would yoyo-ing them back no more than twice a day be a real limit? I'm not at all certain it would be. I would still be more inclined to nerf the spell in a way that reduces its ability to render any "drop to zero" attack meaningless, or ban it outright.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Healing word is nice, but at the level most PCs cast it, it only gives the target enough HP to survive 1 hit and assumes that caster can see the target. As a DM it's not my goal to kill off PCs, it's my goal to challenge the players and keep the PCs on their toes. Healing word does a lot of work to keep the person playing the cleric engaged and feeling like they're doing something other than being a healing bot.

Almost having a TPK is far more enjoyable for every group I've ever DMed than actually having a TPK.

See, this is a philosophical clash. If you can't give me a reason for Healing Word that isn't "it keeps the cleric from being bored", then I'm really not interested. Also, you know what would keep the clerics attention? Having to actually put themselves in danger to rescue a teammate, like any combat medic ever.

Heck, I'm of the opinion that, once you are brought down to zero, you ought to be out of the fight altogether unless whoever's rendering aid is very lucky on their roll to stabilize. This would encourage players to fight smart and use group tactics to improve their chances of success.

 

[Oofta]

See, this is a philosophical clash. If you can't give me a reason for Healing Word that isn't "it keeps the cleric from being bored", then I'm really not interested. Also, you know what would keep the clerics attention? Having to actually put themselves in danger to rescue a teammate, like any combat medic ever.

Heck, I'm of the opinion that, once you are brought down to zero, you ought to be out of the fight altogether unless whoever's rendering aid is very lucky on their roll to stabilize. This would encourage players to fight smart and use group tactics to improve their chances of success.

I did give a reason, you just don't like it. That's fine, but I also let people use healing potions as a bonus action because, again, it's more enjoyable for people I've played with to almost be taken out of the fight. The most tense, and exciting, moments I've ever had were when the group is barely hanging on by a thread but still hanging on.

Sitting on the sidelines is boring, engaging in the fight knowing that you're on the precipice of defeat is far more exciting and memorable.

 

[tetrasodium]

That's not a bad idea. I'm not sure it's enough though. The issue as I see it is that you can do it as a bonus action, and you can do it at range. The spell is tailor-made to be used for the cleric yoyo maneuver. If someone has, say, a +2 Con mod, would yoyo-ing them back no more than twice a day be a real limit? I'm not at all certain it would be. I would still be more inclined to nerf the spell in a way that reduces its ability to render any "drop to zero" attack meaningless, or ban it outright.

I'll go further and say that it IS a bad idea. The impression that I got from that particular idea when I first read it was "huh... What comes after bargaining?" Before looking it up denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. 5e spent almost a decade defending healing word with the first two stages. Now that we have a real chance of wotc being at the point where they finally accept that it is an abomination of design that needs to and can be corrected in 2024 we are seeing some of healing word's defenders trying to bargain out some way of preserving the problem.

If bonus action healing word is good for Bob's game, Bob is free to buff his players by reverting to the bonkers version without needing to justify a nerf once it's corrected. Having it bonkers by default unless the gm nerfs it is an unreasonable default state used far far too often in current day d&d where wotc has spent years telling us they did it to make homebrewing easy.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I did give a reason, you just don't like it. That's fine, but I also let people use healing potions as a bonus action because, again, it's more enjoyable for people I've played with to almost be taken out of the fight. The most tense, and exciting, moments I've ever had were when the group is barely hanging on by a thread but still hanging on.

Sitting on the sidelines is boring, engaging in the fight knowing that you're on the precipice of defeat is far more exciting and memorable.

Yes, I know you gave a reason, and I said I wasn't interested in it. What are you disputing with this?

I don't see 5e combat as tense and exciting most of the time, because I know that being dropped to zero hp usually has very little effect. At best it's the illusion of danger. I want there to be consequences to engaging in combat carelessly, and as the rules stand there really aren't (and that's not going to change with 5.5). It was always my biggest issue with Critical Role, because they always pretended that fights were really dangerous even though most of the time chances of any negative consequences for the party were very low.

If you get knocked down and you're bored, play your henchmen. That's (part of) what they're for.

 

[ECMO3]

Healing word is nice, but at the level most PCs cast it, it only gives the target enough HP to survive 1 hit and assumes that caster can see the target. As a DM it's not my goal to kill off PCs, it's my goal to challenge the players and keep the PCs on their toes. Healing word does a lot of work to keep the person playing the cleric engaged and feeling like they're doing something other than being a healing bot.

Almost having a TPK is far more enjoyable for every group I've ever DMed than actually having a TPK.

Yes but it is enough to survive that 80hp damage hit over and over round after round as long as you keep casting it.

Being able to see is a concern as is things that are not damage and it does not counter those.

 

[billd91]

I’ll echo the whole legendary action, lair action, legendary resistance triumvirate.
I also frequently put class levels on NPCs. Though they add complexity, they can also add significant power in a way that my players can often recognize and appreciate. For example, I adapted Kagro Thundersmiter, leader of the Hunter of Tiamat’s Children in Age of Worms chapter 10, as a path of the zealot barbarian to reflect his fanaticism. And his rage sure helped get through the defenses of the dwarf fighter with the cloak of displacement!

 

[ECMO3]

I'm not following your math here.

Standard 4 person party. 2 PCs downed every turn. One healer (I'll be generous and assume the healer won't be targeted unless all other party members are downed first). I'll also assume side initiative, since that way downed party members won't have their turns skipped if they would act before the healer's turn. The healer will use HW on their turn to get an ally conscious. Since you can't also cast a non-cantrip spell on a turn that you cast a BA spell, we'll assume that's all the healing they can provide (most healers don't have class features that provide non-spell healing options). I'll also assume a powerful solo monster so that the damage remains consistent throughout the encounter.

To be clear I said "If someone who is not downed has healing word one PC getting downed doesn't really even reduce the parties overall effectiveness."

I get that nuance was easy to miss and arguably off topic to the post I replied to..

Having 2 down will reduce effectiveness, because it is going to take the healers action but not by a large amount if you have a healer cleric because that is all it is - one action. Aid usually brings back up to 3 characters on a single 2nd level casting and it upcasts well. Aura of Life will bring back every single downed PC over and over again at the start of their turn (i.e. no lost actions) as long as they are within 30 feet and the Cleric maintains concentration.

Using your chart:
Monster downs 2 PCS
Aura of Life - 3 APM (not counting Cleric since he used his action on the casting)
Monster downs 2 PCs
2 brought back from AOL - 4APM
Monster downs 2 PCs
2 brought back from AOL - 4APM

AOL lasts 100 rounds if they don't break concentration. Add sanctuary to all this in round 2+ as a bonus action after the Cleric makes an attack or cantrip.

As long as the party has healing this is going to go on and on and on. If they target and down the Cleric and other party members have healing they bring him up and he brings up the other downed guy and we keep going.

If the monster downs all the healers, then yes the fight is lost.

If you are fighting with multiple enemies who make melee attacks, the best course of action is usually to attack a downed PCs instead of downing another PC. A melee hit from 5 feet away on a downed PC is automatically a critical and causes 2 failed death saves, so 2 hits on a downed PC kills her outright. If you have multiple enemies or multiple attacks, this is usually the most effective strategy to counter yo-yo healing.

 

[Oofta]

Yes, I know you gave a reason, and I said I wasn't interested in it. What are you disputing with this?

I don't see 5e combat as tense and exciting most of the time, because I know that being dropped to zero hp usually has very little effect. At best it's the illusion of danger. I want there to be consequences to engaging in combat carelessly, and as the rules stand there really aren't (and that's not going to change with 5.5). It was always my biggest issue with Critical Role, because they always pretended that fights were really dangerous even though most of the time chances of any negative consequences for the party were very low.

If you get knocked down and you're bored, play your henchmen. That's (part of) what they're for.

I haven't played a game in a group with henchmen since .... hmm ... I would guess since 1E. As far as being dropped to 0 not being exciting, our experience differs. Especially when someone is dropped to 0, immediately dropped again and then a second (or third) PC is knocked to 0 as the DM rolls death saves.

In any case all I was saying was different strokes for different folks.