D&D 5E Challenging High-Level 5e Characters

[aco175]

In big set fights and boss fights I like to have a couple options that force the PCs to make choices. Think Indianna Jones where your girl is being lowered into a lava pit or the plane now has no pilot. There is still a fight going on, but there is also this other danger that needs to be come back to every couple rounds. It also needs to be varied so that the rogue is not the only one not fighting. Maybe a gate needs to be held open for a few rounds or a magic set of runes need to be read to open another secret tunnel.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Have opponents use consumable magic items.
Add additional class/monster features and/or feats to opponents and their attacks.
Regional and Lair effects should be a constant challenge.
Randomise hits points of opponents.
Introduce escalation dice when players take too long.

 

[J-H]

1. No blobs of just HP and attacks. Attack things other than AC. Force saving throws and skill checks. One of the few times I made my 18th level part run away was when they were investigating an old mine that was set up as a baited trap by a nearby mindflayer city. The paladin looked into a crevice and saw the Intellect Devourer, then failed his INT save. They left and spent the next 2-3 days traveling until he wasn't a drooling idiot.
2. The big ugly ogre/giant types don't just hit for damage. They also force a strength save or get grabbed, strength save or get knocked back into another PC, damaging both and maybe proning.
Dragons get spellcasting. Ever fought an invisible dragon?
3. Important fights need to have interesting terrain and objectives.
4. Non-combat objectives. They're not just there to kill X, they're also there to steal/destroy/fix Y. Now they have to go someplace specific, and deal with the guards, wards, riddles, etc. around it.
5. No solo bosses.
6. Turn it up to 11, they can handle it. The final battle of Against the Idol of the Sun was an avatar of Huitzopochtli (CR 28-30ish, perma-hasted, DC 22 aura of fire & blindness), his high priest (capable of casting 9th level spells), 4-6 lesser priests, 2-4 elite fighters (5 attacks per round, dex to damage, resist most elements, >100hp) and 4-6 melee Aarakocra (don't recall exactly how many) atop a temple in the middle of a city of 100,000, with reinforcements inbound.
The party Reduced a Teleportation Gate ring they found, and used it to bring in about 100 giants as a diversionary attack, while allies attacked the outside of the city, AND they teleported in a kraken they'd made a bargain with. Most of that fighting was off-screen, but it definitely gave them an edge in terms of preventing hordes of reinforcements.
This was a 2-session battle, though.

 

[Retreater]

I've found the best challenges for higher level 5e characters is to not challenge them directly. Challenge the NPCs they love, their allied nations, etc.

 

[Distracted DM]

I've never had an issue with it, most players greatly prefer it once they are used to it. It's way better to be told up front that your gamebreaking spell just doesn't work on the BBEG than to engage in the frustrating loop of legendary resistances where your turns are straight up wasted until you burn through enough wasted turns to auto-win the fight. Also this change does wonders for narrowing the Martial vs Caster divide and letting all players at the table feel like they actually matter.

I'm not talking about banning CC entirely, just on the epic boss monster at the end of a story arc, stuff like that. Often times I'll also have some powerful minions with the boss that aren't immune, so CC spells still have their place in making the fight much easier without entirely trivializing it. Basically I just treat big fights like a World of Warcraft raid boss - makes it much easier to balance and ensure the fight is challenging enough to be satisfying when the players win

Ah you know I was just thinking single-boss in this instance- yes having other big dangerous stuff, not just mooks, for the party to CC would maintain the CC feeling like it's doing something.

And yeah, WoW raid bosses can be excellent examples of how to have an engaging boss fight- I wouldn't mind there being a writeup of all of them for use! Maybe there's already been

 

[el-remmen]

what are your best approaches for keeping up challenging combat encounters for high level characters that don't take two to three hours to run?

I wish I had suggestions that jibed with your playstyle (as I have come to understand it from your videos). I tend run combats that are simultaneously both tactically and role-playing-ly intense - so even when they last an hour or more of real-time (I have have had in initiative running combats that have lasted longer than a full five hour session!) everyone is so engaged and having fun it never feels like a slog.

 

[Distracted DM]

I wish I had suggestions that jibed with your playstyle (as I have come to understand it from your videos). I tend run combats that are simultaneously both tactically and role-playing-ly intense - so even when they last an hour or more of real-time (I have have had in initiative running combats that have lasted longer than a full five hour session!) everyone is so engaged and having fun it never feels like a slog.

Ok so you're saying that you can't help with advice here, because you never encounter slog due to every one of your encounters being incredibly fun and engaging.

It sounds to me like you can help by telling us how you make every encounter a gem (including the high level ones)!

 

[el-remmen]

Ok so you're saying that you can't help with advice here, because you never encounter slog due to every one of your encounters being incredibly fun and engaging.

It sounds to me like you can help by telling us how you make every encounter a gem (including the high level ones)!

Well, my every encounter is not a "gem" (I wish!) but they are rarely slogs. I am defining "slog" not based on a specific criteria of time or combat length (see my thread collecting data on this topic) but based on the feeling of the players while engaging. What works at my table is not going to work at every table.

The issue is that I know most of things I would suggest are things SlyFlourish has made clear he (and his group?) are not into - combining tactical granularity, a willingness to let bad things happen (even if on paper they might not seem "fun" - whatever that means), and role-playing stakes that the PCs take seriously (i.e. moral quandaries) and are lateral to the goal of hitting enemies until they fall down and don't get back up. Oh and letting the combat go as long as it has to go, however long that might be.

I actually think many people in this thread have already made more helpful suggestions.

 

[Oofta]

I guess it just depends on what the issues are. Maybe the groups I've played with don't have much tactical acumen or I'm just not concerned with turning the difficulty up to 11 but I have no problem challenging groups. I guess I'd have to know what doesn't work to better answer the question.

A few things I do at different times.

• We don't use counterspell. It's not technically banned, I just let people know that if every combat with a caster devolves into multiple counterspell battles that I can always throw a relatively low level NPC with improved invisibility that does nothing but counterspells. Which is ... boring. So basically talk to your players about how to improve combats.
• I rarely use solos as true solos. Even then, I give the solos things to do other than fight mano-e-mano. A dragon will be flying around for example and are smart enough to avoid a lot of counters. The trick here is to give the PCs something they can do.
• I increase the number of legendary saves to the number of PCs -1. I also don't always tell people when I'm using legendary saves, if I do it will be something obvious like the bad guy has a necklace with glowing crystals that go dark when they use it. I also increase the number of legendary actions to number of PCs -1.
• Prevent teleportation, either one of the spells from the book or just some unique feature of the book.
• Goals other than kill all the bad guys as other people have mentioned.
• I target the squishies. Multiple waves help with this, it's not always safe to be the archer/warlock/wizard hiding in the back. In fact, it can be quite dangerous.
• Modify spell lists for NPC casters and do things like make them evokers so they can ignore allies with their AOE spells. I have a couple of variations of liches for example, but I almost always replace their spell list with something appropriate to the NPC.
• Give powerful magic items to the NPCs, frequently with some reason they can't be used by the PCs. They're cursed, they're powered by the souls of the innocent, etc..
• Modify lower level monsters by increasing their attack bonus and damage but leave defenses and HP the same for cannon fodder.
• Target the party's weak spots. Make the wizard make strength saves and the fighter wisdom or intelligence saves.
• Set up the environment to favor the enemy.

I guess maybe part of it is just that I'm not afraid to throw tough enough monsters. For example when the party was 18th level I threw 3 frost worms (upgraded purple worms from Explorer's Guide to Wildermount that have a trill that can stun). The worms stunned a couple of PCs, ate them, and then started burrowing away. In a higher level game I started with a Lord of Blades that I upgraded to make him the BBEG. I had an archmage (with a different spell list) cast foresight on him ahead of time. The archmage then ran around with improved invisibility doing fun shenanigans. I also threw in some slightly modified stone guardians (increased their attack mod). After a few tough encounters without a long rest, it was a tough fight and I almost killed off the paladin who goaded the BBEG into a one-on-one fight.

 

[Shardstone]

High damage as an HP tax, and every monster has one or more ways of taking out a PC that bypasses hit points, such as through mutations, possession, soul damage, and so on. Every round, the players will risk taking high damage from the enemy, and with that damage comes an effect that will take them out in about 3 rounds if they get hit by it repeatedly, give or take depending on the situation.

This has made high level D&D super easy and very fun for me. Players get to enjoy the fruits of their high hit points by tangling with monsters that pretty much autokill anything else, but they are still challenging and not slogs because their main avenue for defeating the players isn't based on targeting their hit points. Likewise, these enemies usually have enough hit points to go through several phases, because longer combats need regular changes in order to stay interesting (longer being more then 3 rounds).