D&D (2024) Change in Charisma Description

[Irlo]

I would argue that appearance can affect any or all Charisma skills. Many people are legitimately more inclined to trust someone they find attractive, for example.

Sure. And some people are less inclined to trust someone they find attractive. Or to dismiss attractive people as vapid and not worth listening to. And none of that usually comes into play at all if a human is trying to trick a goblin or cast a spell.

I'd leave the effect of appearance to be defined by personality traits. I can easily see a character with a flaw that provides disadvantage vs. CHA checks from an attractive person. And if the DM and players have not defined those traits, then I'd leave it to the dice. 1d20 provides plenty of swing to account for varied reactions to any particular appearance without tying that appearance to a CHA score.

 

[James Gasik]

I would argue that appearance can affect any or all Charisma skills. Many people are legitimately more inclined to trust someone they find attractive, for example.

This is certainly true, as much as some people hate to admit that they are influenced by good looks. But the way the game is written, this is not true. I was of the mind that you could give out advantage for someone being exceptionally attractive, but given the example of Elves with their "unearthly beauty", I realize I can't do that, because it would, in effect, be giving them another racial trait with nothing to counter balance it.

 

[Cadence]

I'm trying to remember what story I read where the humans, with their bare skin were viewed as exceptionally ugly by one of the other species. I'm guessing that wouldn't be changed by how attractive other humans thought the person in question was.

 

[Clint_L]

Arguments from realism fall apart in a game where a gnome can be physically stronger than a goliath. I don't think our culture's preoccupation with appearance is healthy, especially for women, and I don't need it in my fantasy game. If players want to choose to make their character beautiful, more power to 'em. But I ain't gonna mandate it, or even suggest it.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I always liked the 2E approach. In that is 'is not a reflection of physical attractiveness' but attractiveness plays a role (and what is meant by attractive is pretty open to interpretation I think as that doesn't need to mean beauty). But it is primarily interested in "persuasiveness, personal magnetism, and ability to lead." I remember when I was in highschool we had a history teacher who was very interested in the topic of charisma and used to ask us rhetorically what it meant. From what I remember, pretty much anything we told him, he said was 'wrong'. I think the idea was there was some quality to it you couldn't quite put into words and that it couldn't necessarily be pinned to a list of traits It is about how much you can captivate a crowd, how people respond to you....and that isn't always a product of something as obvious as having nice smile.

Also what CHR does mechanically matters. Obviously this varies by edition but in 2e at least, it is your reaction adjustment, your loyalty base and also your max number of henchmen. The latter isn't just going to be about what you look like (you can make an argument that physical attractiveness might be a factor in reaction rolls, but I think for keeping henchmen over the long term, that is probably going to be about other leadership qualities---attractiveness could be a factor, people might stick with someone they find appealing longer, but I think that is probably lower on the list than other things like how that person makes them feel). When I think of very charismatic leaders one thing they seem to be able to do is make everyone in a crowd feel like they are being spoken to by that person, like this is someone you would want to spend time with. And for you to have that feeling they need to be approachable. Being too attractive could actually be a determinent because people might find that less approachable and more intimidating. I think the bottom line is any of the elements relating to physical appearance in CHR are best left to the player to decide for their character and for the GM to decide for their NPC.

Also some things ought to be contextual. A PC who is a politician or bard might take a penalty to CHR if they gain a facial scar. Someone who leads a troop of hardened soldiers might gain a bonus.

 

[Clint_L]

Again, I teach high school students. I don't think they need yet another avenue to be bombarded with the message that "attractiveness certainly plays a role" in how valuable they are or how successful they can be. Can't at least our fantasy worlds offer them a safe space from that constant BS?

 

[Bedrockgames]

Again, I teach high school students. I don't think they need yet another avenue to be bombarded with the message that "attractiveness certainly plays a role" in how valuable they are or how successful they can be. Can't at least our fantasy worlds offer them a safe space from that constant BS?

I don’t know how you got that idea about success from what I said. I you look at my entire post I think you will see that isn’t what I am saying. My point was letting people decide if attractiveness (which I defined quite broadly) was part of their charisma score, but it shouldn’t have to be. I also pointed to where physical beauty could be a minus rather than a plus

 

[Scribe]

Again, I teach high school students. I don't think they need yet another avenue to be bombarded with the message that "attractiveness certainly plays a role" in how valuable they are or how successful they can be. Can't at least our fantasy worlds offer them a safe space from that constant BS?

The flaw is positioning Charisma as determination of one's value, or success. Not physical attractiveness. Cha is my dump Stat, how will my Orc Barbarian determine his worth?

I mean, and saying an RPG has any bearing in the first place...it's Fantasy.

Now let's get back to kicking in doors and killing people to take loot.

Where's that study correlating height and leadership roles...hmm.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

No. Completely, absolutely not. Personal appearance should be completely up to the player to decide. Also, history is full of incredibly charismatic people who were not particularly attractive in a conventional way, and incredible jerks who were considered gorgeous.

If Lyle Lovett could marry Julia Roberts back in the day...

Absolutely.

Look every nerd I know who watches actual play shows enough to know who he is, is either unambiguously attracted to Brennan Lee Mulligan or is confused about why they’re attracted to Brennan Lee Mulligan.

If he was a bitter little incel dipstick, no one would find him attractive.

Erika Ishii is, if viewed dispassionately, maybe half as hot as she comes across by being such a weird little hot goblin person who can go from sultry to extreme dork energy instantly.

The number of women I know who are into Seth Rogan is wild!

Beauty can help, sure. Chris Pratt is very physically attractive, and that surely plays a part in why he keeps getting big roles and lots of attention in spite of having the personality of a quietly cult-y square of cardboard.

But it definitely doesn’t dominate personality in the “charisma” matrix, and is just frankly problematic for a lot of people to have the game focus on.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Attractiveness is subjective. While there are trends, physical traits have different qualities to different people based on their personal experiences, associations, and preferences. Often it's also directly in relationship to themselves, like someone preferring the appearance of women who are taller than themselves, which can rather vary between gnomes and goliaths.

Yeah super symmetrical people tend to sort of just turn into background faces for me, rather than standing out as attractive.

Took me a couple movies to care when Chris Evans was on the screen in a marvel movie, but put Owen Wilson in a movie and I’m buying tickets asap.