"Change Shape" from Medium to Small

[allenw]

So, let's say you have a Doppelganger (M) who uses Change Shape to pretend to be a Halfling or Gnome (S). It (and it's carried gear) become Small sized.
Becoming Small certainly gives it +1 to hit and +1 AC. And its formerly-Medium weapons now do damage as Small weapons (though missile weapons get complicated). But what happens to its stats? The SRD says "the creature retains the ability scores of its original form," but is that before taking size changes into account?
As I see it, there are three plausible options:
1: No stat changes.
2: Stat changes as per Reduce Person: -2 Str, +2 Dex (which also happens to also be the racial adjustments for a Halfling, though not for a Gnome)
3: Stat changes as per the converse of the size-change table in Improving Monsters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm): -8 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Con (and maybe -2 Natural Armor).

Balance-wise, I'm sure it's not #3. #1 is simplest, but is it what's intended by RAW?

Any thoughts are appreciated.

SRD:

Change Shape
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using change shape reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use change shape to take the form of a creature with a template. Changing shape results in the following changes to the creature:

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form.
The creature loses the natural weapons and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
The creature retains all other special attacks and qualities of its original form, except for breath weapons and gaze attacks.
The creature retains the ability scores of its original form.
Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

 

[frankthedm]

1's the fastest and safest.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Actually, missile weapons are easy. Missile damage is based on the size of the launcher, so in this case, the bow/xbow/sling would be small, and the ammo would do small damage. Medium and small bows use the same arrows.

If it were a throwing weapon, it's maybe complicated. For enlarge/reduce person spells, the throwing weapon reverts to normal size after release and does appropriate damage dice. I'd imagine the same for dopplegangers, especially given that last line, "Gear returns to normal size if dropped." Lesson: If you're a doppleganger, going small and not wanting to raise suspicions, avoid using throwing weapons.

 

[allenw]

Thanks; I was using "missile weapon" to include thrown weapons as well.
The "thrown weapons deal their normal damage, and projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them" distinction never made sense to me, since I assumed that Medium bows use Medium arrows, Small bows use Small arrows, halfling sling bullets are smaller than human ones, etc. Do you have a source for Small and Medium bows using the same arrows? Surely Large, Huge, etc. bows use bigger arrows.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, there's the text from enlarge person, which makes it pretty clear: "Melee and projectile weapons affected by this spell deal more damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage, and projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them."
Enlarge Person :: d20srd.org

Also, if you look at the weapons table here: Weapons :: d20srd.org
You'll notice for all projectile weapons, the damage is listed on the launcher's line, never on the line of the ammunition. It doesn't matter what the arrow size is, all that matters is the launcher size, per RAW.

 

[allenw]

Well, there's the text from enlarge person, which makes it pretty clear: "Melee and projectile weapons affected by this spell deal more damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage, and projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them."
Enlarge Person :: d20srd.org

I'm aware of the text, I just didn't think that the distinction it describes made sense. And actually, it supports the "Arrows have Size" interpretation: "Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size"; therefore, projectiles (such as Arrows) *are* enlarged/shrunk by an Enlarge/Reduce Person spell, and revert to normal when fired. Which makes it odd that a Large arrow shrunk back to Medium does more damage than one that started out Medium, but a Large throwing axe shrunk back to Medium does not. I see it as yet more of D&D's favoritism towards bows.


Plus, the PHB/SRD section on Arrows says "An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger *of its size*" (emphasis mine).

I see the Weapons Table as not listing damage on the Arrow line because it's already listed on the Bow line above it; the Bow and Arrow are being treated as one unit for most purposes of the table.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm aware of the text, I just didn't think that the distinction it describes made sense. And actually, it supports the "Arrows have Size" interpretation: "Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size"; therefore, projectiles (such as Arrows) *are* enlarged/shrunk by an Enlarge/Reduce Person spell, and revert to normal when fired.

But it doesn't really matter if medium and small arrows have much size difference (I tend to visualize them as close enough to be interchangeable). The very next line from what you quoted says straight out that the size of the arrow doesn't even matter. "...projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them."

Which makes it odd that a Large arrow shrunk back to Medium does more damage than one that started out Medium, but a Large throwing axe shrunk back to Medium does not. I see it as yet more of D&D's favoritism towards bows.

And crossbows, and slings....

I know you were joking, but it works both ways. Reduce Person might actually be an bsolute steal for throwing weapons. If you're a human going small, the thrown weapon retains the medium damage value. In this case, the bowman would be stuck with small damage. You also get +2 to hit and -1 damage from size and stat changes, which at worst is a wash and at best a gain.

And IMO, it's far easier to break a thrower than an archer. They've gotten a lot of love in splatbooks with feats like Brutal Throw (bye bye, dual stat dependency!) and Prestige Classes like Bloodstorm Blade and Master Thrower.

Plus, the PHB/SRD section on Arrows says "An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger *of its size*" (emphasis mine).

Yes, at that point you're no longer using it as a projectile, you're using it as a dagger. Just like how iff you threw a sling bullet at someone, it'd no longer follow the same rules as when it's used as a projectile.



Maybe I should approach this a different way. Going solely with medium bows, do you think a medium shortbow and a medium longbow require different sizes of arrows? If you don't, please explain why the same exact arrow is doing 1d6 damage with a shortbow and 1d8 with a longbow, if damage is NOT based on the launcher, as you assert.
If you do think they use different arrows, why are the weights, cost, and number per quiver identical? Do you enforce this view when a PC archer tries to collect the "wrong" kind of arrow from a dead enemy archer's quiver?

 

[allenw]

But it doesn't really matter if medium and small arrows have much size difference (I tend to visualize them as close enough to be interchangeable). The very next line from what you quoted says straight out that the size of the arrow doesn't even matter. "...projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them."

I absolutely agree that that's the way the rule reads, and since I generally go by the RAW, that's how I'll DM it if and when it comes up. But it seems silly and pointless that the rule for thrown weapons is different. A thrown weapon is "fired" by the thrower, so why shouldn't it deal damage based on the size of the thrower? Why is momentum apparently conserved when the initial impetus comes from an Enlarged/Reduced bow, but not when it comes from an Enlarged/Reduced throwing arm?

What I'm looking for is some rationale, or rationalization, or even a game-balance excuse, as to *why* the rules are different.

And crossbows, and slings....

Crossbows and slings can't be reloaded as a free action, so you can't get iterative attacks from them. Really, bows get all the love in Core (I'm not much for splatbooks, but Throwing must get a *lot* of love there if it matches the power and options given to bows in core).

I know you were joking, but it works both ways. Reduce Person might actually be an bsolute steal for throwing weapons.

A good point, but the fact that bows are better with Enlarge, and thrown objects are better with Reduce, is still silly and apparently inexplicable.

Maybe I should approach this a different way. Going solely with medium bows, do you think a medium shortbow and a medium longbow require different sizes of arrows? If you don't, please explain why the same exact arrow is doing 1d6 damage with a shortbow and 1d8 with a longbow, if damage is NOT based on the launcher, as you assert.
If you do think they use different arrows, why are the weights, cost, and number per quiver identical? Do you enforce this view when a PC archer tries to collect the "wrong" kind of arrow from a dead enemy archer's quiver?

I don't, but Tolkein did.

While in reality (and in Tolkein) shortbow arrows and longbow arrows are different sizes, in D&D they're the same size. And I accept that level of abstraction for simplicity's sake. The damage is still different, because the longbow imparts greater force than the shortbow to the same arrow, resulting in greater velocity and range.
And, if momentum (or even just velocity) is conserved in this circumstance, it follows that an Enlarged arrow fired by an Enlarged bow will keep going faster than a regular arrow even after it shrinks back down, and thus do more damage.
But if that's the case, then the exact same logic and result should apply to an Enlarged axe thrown by an Enlarged arm. Yet under the RAW, it doesn't. This isn't abstraction for simplicity's sake; rather, it's complication for no purpose I can divine, yielding a nonsensical result.

And that's all I have to say about that.

 

[allenw]

Okay, one more thought:
I've thought of one possible game-balance excuse for the discrepancy:
Thrown weapons get STR mods to damage; Missile weapons (except for the sling) don't (yes, there are mighty bows, but the "mightyness" of the bow won't increase when Enlarged). So an Enlarged (until thrown) throwing axe will be getting +1 to damage by virtue of the throwers' +2 STR, but no Large weapon damage; while an Enlarged (until shot) arrow will be getting a bigger damage die (averaging to +1 damage), but no STR damage increase.

Still silly and inconsistent, though, IMO.