Changeling and Disguise/Alter Self

[moritheil]

Then, similarly, you cannot use false ears and make-up to make a single disguise.

Explain.

That's not what I did.

I assumed you couldn't do it, and showed the ridiculousness that it leads to.

In mathematics, it'd be a proof by contradiction: http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~larryc/proofs/proofs.contradict.html

The false ears and makeup are applied at the same time. They are both elements of the "disguise kit" which is used.

* - Why must it be a complete disguise?

Because to assume otherwise leads to all kinds of stupidity.

In my reading, you actually asserted that you could do it, and then you showed the ridiculousness that it leads to. I understand your intent was to do the opposite, but that's not how it reads to me.

Let me explain the reasoning behind "the other camp" of interpretation as best I can.

Essentially, when you Alter Self, you make a complete disguise. When you Disguise Self, you are making a new, complete disguise. You do not create "a partial disguise" and then fill in the gaps with your subsequent spells; rather, each spell represents an attempt to make a complete disguise.

Now, if you CAN stack those two, what does it mean? That is the situation that assumes an incomplete disguise is created when you cast the first spell, that is then filled in or added to by subsequent disguise magics.

If you cannot stack those two, then what does that lead to? That leads to the ruling that the first time you make the disguise, you make one disguise, and the second time, you make another disguise. For example, using Alter Self, an elf attempts to appear as a human man. With the second spell cast, Disguise Self, that same elf is also attempting to appear as a human man, but the details of the actual implementation vary. It is not "the same disguise."

If I wear one wig, then trade it for another, the second wig may be a more lifelike one, or it may be a less lifelike one. All in all, I might have better odds with a wig made by a more skilled wig-maker, but each time I remove a wig and put another one on I still run the slight chance of putting a wig on crooked.

So, the question then becomes, "What constitutes a 'use of the skill'"?

Obviously, it must be a complete disguise.*

If you are using both Alter Self and Disguise Self to make a single disguise, then both bonuses apply.

* - Why must it be a complete disguise?

Because to assume otherwise leads to all kinds of stupidity. Let's assume that a thin human male wants to disguise himself as an elven female. In order to make his disguise, we'll assume that he must alter his ears, his eyebrows, and his bustline, as well as apply some make-up.

When do you make the disguise roll?

According to those who say that the two spells / abilities may not be used in concert, you must here make 4 separate Disguise rolls: once to disguise himself as a human with funny ears, once to disguise himself as a human with altered eyebrows, once to disguise himself as a human male with breasts, and once to disguise himself as a human male wearing some make-up.

You are clearly assuming, above, that different disguise checks lead to modifications on the exact same disguise. Unless you use English in a different way than I am accustomed to reading.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The false ears and makeup are applied at the same time. They are both elements of the "disguise kit" which is used.

But, presumably, done in some temporal order. After all,

Action: Creating a disguise requires 1d3×10 minutes of work.

So, if I can add ears as one part of "using the disguise kit," and then, some twenty minutes later add make-up as part of "using the disguise kit," and these apply to one roll, but I can't cast Alter Self and then six seconds later cast Disguise Self and have them apply to one roll?

I call shenanigans.

In my reading, you actually asserted that you could do it, and then you showed the ridiculousness that it leads to.

Read it again. I said, to paraphrase, "Theorum: You can do it. Proof: Assume you can't do it. Here's the silly stuff that happens when each step of creating a disguise requires a separate roll. That's silly and not supported by the rules, therefore you can do it."

Essentially, when you Alter Self, you make a complete disguise. When you Disguise Self, you are making a new, complete disguise. You do not create "a partial disguise" and then fill in the gaps with your subsequent spells; rather, each spell represents an attempt to make a complete disguise.

When you place fake ears on your human, you make a complete disguise. When you then add fake breasts, you make a new, complete disguise. You do not create "a partial disguise" and then fill in the gaps with your subsequent make-up; rather, each piece of disguise represents an attempt to make a complete disguise.

Other than the obvious problem with your line of reasoning, where do you get the interpretation that Alter Self creates "a complete disguise"? At best:

Special: Magic that alters your form, such as alter self, disguise self, polymorph, or shapechange, grants you a +10 bonus on Disguise checks (see the individual spell descriptions).

However:

Alter Self: You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check. ... When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional.

Disguise Self: You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. ... If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check.

Note that Alter Self does not affect your equipment at all, while Disguise Self does.

Note the untyped bonuses.

Now, if you CAN stack those two, what does it mean? That is the situation that assumes an incomplete disguise is created when you cast the first spell, that is then filled in or added to by subsequent disguise magics.

In exactly the same way that adding fake elf ears does not an elven maiden disguise make.

Using one spell to create your entire disguise grants you a +10 bonus on the roll (which radiates Transmutation magic). Using the other spell grants you a +10 bonus on the roll (which radiates Illusion magic, and can be touched to prove it's not there). Using both grants you a +20 bonus on the roll.

If you cannot stack those two, then what does that lead to? That leads to the ruling that the first time you make the disguise, you make one disguise, and the second time, you make another disguise. For example, using Alter Self, an elf attempts to appear as a human man. With the second spell cast, Disguise Self, that same elf is also attempting to appear as a human man, but the details of the actual implementation vary. It is not "the same disguise."

Unless, of course, it *is* the same disguise. The human male (in, for purposes of argument, mithril chainmail) Alters Self into an elven female of looks approximating an elven noblewoman (let's say a particular elven noblewoman). He then Disguises Self to make his armor, sword, and longbow look like this particular noblewoman's dress, court rapier, and walking-staff, as well as changing his red-stone Ring of Protection into the noblewoman's blue-stone, slightly glimmery house sigil ring. His disguise is now complete, and he gains a +20 bonus to the Disguise roll.

Should he be viewed by a lesser form of True Seeing, which for argument's sake pierces only Illusions, then he would be revealed as the particular elven noblewoman wearing some unusual gear. His Disguise roll suffers an effective -10 penalty for that viewer (as Disguise Self is no longer helping the attempt).

If I wear one wig, then trade it for another, the second wig may be a more lifelike one, or it may be a less lifelike one. All in all, I might have better odds with a wig made by a more skilled wig-maker, but each time I remove a wig and put another one on I still run the slight chance of putting a wig on crooked.

On the other hand, if you keep the damn wig on, and instead add a false nose ...

 

[moritheil]

But, presumably, done in some temporal order. After all,



So, if I can add ears as one part of "using the disguise kit," and then, some twenty minutes later add make-up as part of "using the disguise kit," and these apply to one roll, but I can't cast Alter Self and then six seconds later cast Disguise Self and have them apply to one roll?

I call shenanigans.



Read it again. I said, to paraphrase, "Theorum: You can do it. Proof: Assume you can't do it. Here's the silly stuff that happens when each step of creating a disguise requires a separate roll. That's silly and not supported by the rules, therefore you can do it."



When you place fake ears on your human, you make a complete disguise. When you then add fake breasts, you make a new, complete disguise. You do not create "a partial disguise" and then fill in the gaps with your subsequent make-up; rather, each piece of disguise represents an attempt to make a complete disguise.

Other than the obvious problem with your line of reasoning, where do you get the interpretation that Alter Self creates "a complete disguise"? At best:



However:



Note that Alter Self does not affect your equipment at all, while Disguise Self does.

Note the untyped bonuses.



In exactly the same way that adding fake elf ears does not an elven maiden disguise make.

Using one spell to create your entire disguise grants you a +10 bonus on the roll (which radiates Transmutation magic). Using the other spell grants you a +10 bonus on the roll (which radiates Illusion magic, and can be touched to prove it's not there). Using both grants you a +20 bonus on the roll.



Unless, of course, it *is* the same disguise. The human male (in, for purposes of argument, mithril chainmail) Alters Self into an elven female of looks approximating an elven noblewoman (let's say a particular elven noblewoman). He then Disguises Self to make his armor, sword, and longbow look like this particular noblewoman's dress, court rapier, and walking-staff, as well as changing his red-stone Ring of Protection into the noblewoman's blue-stone, slightly glimmery house sigil ring. His disguise is now complete, and he gains a +20 bonus to the Disguise roll.

Should he be viewed by a lesser form of True Seeing, which for argument's sake pierces only Illusions, then he would be revealed as the particular elven noblewoman wearing some unusual gear. His Disguise roll suffers an effective -10 penalty for that viewer (as Disguise Self is no longer helping the attempt).



On the other hand, if you keep the damn wig on, and instead add a false nose ...

I call Brouhaha!

Essentially, I think what's going on here is this: We both seem to agree that it makes no sense to say that multiple Disguise checks are made for the same Disguise.

However, you posit that, in light of that fact, all the different abilities can be used together on the same roll.

I do not agree that that conclusion inevitably and inescapably results from the former statement, and in fact, I think that someone could use the statement to reinforce their position that the different abilities cannot be used together at all.

The issue is still one of whether or not you can use the different abilities together.

 

[Kurotowa]

Since we're nitpicking words....

Both spells use the same sentance. "If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check." Emphasis mine. You use the spell, it makes you look different. These are NOT spells for enhancing your skill check. They create a new appearance which you can control with Disguise, with such ease you get a large bonus to it.

Think about the original point. A changeling transforms her body into a male hobgoblin with her racial Disguise Self. Then she uses Alter Self to transform her body into a male hobgoblin ...again? How does the second effect in any way add to the first? It's really doing the same thing all over again. Creating a new body.

 

[moritheil]

Since we're nitpicking words....

Both spells use the same sentance. "If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check." Emphasis mine. You use the spell, it makes you look different. These are NOT spells for enhancing your skill check. They create a new appearance which you can control with Disguise, with such ease you get a large bonus to it.

That is not a mere nitpick, and indeed, the implication that a new disguise is created is the reason I offered the explanation that differs from Patryn's.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Think about the original point. A changeling transforms her body into a male hobgoblin with her racial Disguise Self. Then she uses Alter Self to transform her body into a male hobgoblin ...again? How does the second effect in any way add to the first? It's really doing the same thing all over again. Creating a new body.

Or ...

Unless, of course, it *is* the same disguise. The changeling female (in, for purposes of argument, mithril chainmail) Alters Self into a hobgoblin male of looks approximating a hobgoblin warchief (let's say a particular hobgoblin warchief). She then Disguises Self to make her armor, sword, and longbow look like this particular warchief's battle-scarred plate, flaming battleaxe, and shaman stick, as well as changing her red-stone Ring of Protection into the warchief's human knuckle-bone Ring of the Clanleader. Her disguise is now complete, and she gains a +20 bonus to the Disguise roll.

Should she be viewed by a lesser form of True Seeing, which for argument's sake pierces only Illusions, then she would be revealed as the particular hobgoblin warchief wearing some unusual gear. Her Disguise roll suffers an effective -10 penalty for that viewer (as Disguise Self is no longer helping the attempt).

In other words, using Alter Self and Disguise Self as two steps to creating the same disguise is no different from using elf ears and make-up as two steps to creating the same disguise.

EDIT: Also, the Changeling's racial ability is really more like Alter Self than Disguise Self. It's an actual, physical change. I don't know why they choose Disguise rather than Alter, but there you are.

 

[moritheil]

Or ...

In other words, using Alter Self and Disguise Self as two steps to creating the same disguise is no different from using elf ears and make-up as two steps to creating the same disguise.

EDIT: Also, the Changeling's racial ability is really more like Alter Self than Disguise Self. It's an actual, physical change. I don't know why they choose Disguise rather than Alter, but there you are.

So you are arguing that you can create something twice and have both instances of creation be the same thing? Am I reading this correctly?

 

[Staffan]

EDIT: Also, the Changeling's racial ability is really more like Alter Self than Disguise Self. It's an actual, physical change. I don't know why they choose Disguise rather than Alter, but there you are.

Because the change is purely cosmetic. You can't change your stats with the changeling ability, or get natural armor, or anything like that. It's just a disguise.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So you are arguing that you can create something twice and have both instances of creation be the same thing? Am I reading this correctly?

No, you're not, and you haven't been since we started goin' 'round on this.

You can create a helmet, and some greaves, and a breastplate, and call the whole deal "D&D Breastplate Armor," which has a unified mechanical effect.

You can apply some fake ears, some make-up, and and a wig and call the whole thing an "Elf Costume," which has a unified mechanical effect.

You can dig a deep hole, cast an illusion of solid ground over it, and call the whole thing an "Illusion-obscured pit trap," which has a unified mechanical effect.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Because the change is purely cosmetic. You can't change your stats with the changeling ability, or get natural armor, or anything like that. It's just a disguise.

That's a good rationale.